Crew Interface

[j.sabourn]

Wondered where all the engineers where in answering Bills post. As most of the people I mixed with were engineers when serving my time and later, and also family members who were marine engineers I never went along with this oil and water rubbish. The only thing I ever went along with was a third Engineer who had served his time as a Blacksmith and the rumour went around that he had served his time shoeing horses and people used to go clippody clop when in his company, he took this in good part. This was again on the Pennyworth so as a couple on this site were on this ship would probably remember if there at that period. At the time I really believed he had been an old type Blacksmith and had slipped through the net. On the few occassions have sailed with shipboard trained men have always found the shipyard people more practical than the shipboard time served ones, this is my personal observations and not decrying anyone, otherwise will be getting this answer deleted as well. Regards John Sabourn

[Roger Dyer]

Hi Shipmates,

Some time back I posted a thread entitled 'Upstairs,Downstairs' which I hoped would excite some interest from the members. I was seeking to learn about the experience of others regarding the contrasting attitudes of officers and ratings and any conflict arising because of the difference, including the ' I'm much better than thou' attitude so common-place at one time. Much to my surprise and disappointment, apart from a few initial responses, the thread received little interest.

In hindsight, perhaps, it would have fared better had I made mention of the apparent animosity existent between some members of the Deck and Engine-Room departments, however, as a deck-rating I had no direct experience of such animosity and therefore would have felt unqualified to comment. During my time at sea, fifty years ago, I thought such feeling was simply a symptom of the 'class ridden society' I was born into and whilst aboard always regarded it as a folly reserved for officers only. From the comments of fellow members, it seems to me the animosity may have been more prevalent than I imagined. I wonder how often the efficient and cohesive control of a merchant ship was impaired by the presence on board of such foolishness?


....................Roger

[happy daze john in oz]

Roger I think a lot of it stemmed from which company you sailed with. On UCL there was a distinct separation between deck, engine and radio officers. The radio officers mixed with no one else as far as I can recall. Engineers were the life and soul of the party whuilst deck always appeared a little above the rest. With NZSC on the cargo only ships it was avery different matter with all hands mixing well, particularly during hot weather when most chose to take their bed on deck. Cunard I believe was also something else when it came to mixing and a mte of mine who served with P&O told me there was very littl mixing between the departments.

[Capt Bill Davies]

Hi Shipmates,

Some time back I posted a thread entitled 'Upstairs,Downstairs' which I hoped would excite some interest from the members. I was seeking to learn about the experience of others regarding the contrasting attitudes of officers and ratings and any conflict arising because of the difference, including the ' I'm much better than thou' attitude so common-place at one time. Much to my surprise and disappointment, apart from a few initial responses, the thread received little interest. I

In hindsight, perhaps, it would have fared better had I made mention of the apparent animosity existent between some members of the Deck and Engine-Room departments, however, as a deck-rating I had no direct experience of such animosity and therefore would have felt unqualified to comment. During my time at sea, fifty years ago, I thought such feeling was simply a symptom of the 'class ridden society' I was born into and whilst aboard always regarded it as a folly reserved for officers only. From the comments of fellow members, it seems to me the animosity may have been more prevalent than I imagined. I wonder how often the efficient and cohesive
control of a merchant ship was impaired by the presence on board of such foolishness?


....................Roger

Roger,

A little while back I made a post which would highlight yours, quoted above. When I enrolled at Liverpool for the Second Mates (FG) I was prepared for a little distance between myself an AB at the time and my fellow students. There were 40 odd in the class and I was the only one 'off deck'. What I was not prepared for was the open hostility of those from the Blue Funnel Line (the Midshipmen). There were probably 15/18 in the class and furthermore 2 had been in school with me in Birkenhead prior to me going to Aberdovey, four went to Conway (One Blue Star and the other P&O). I was, to put it politely ' not accepted'. I am happy to say this was not the case with others from Guthies, Tatums, et al. who were not too dissimilar in their outlook to me. On passing Second Mates (FG) Blue Funnel was 'not acceptable ' to me. The north eas tramps is where I went and enjoyed them immensely for the next 7 years.


Brgds

Bill

[John Arton]

First trip to sea, no pre sea school for me. Interviewed on Tuesday, sailed Thursday as a Cadet.
First ship, 60000 crude oil tanker. On joining thrown a boiler suit and a pair of working boots and told to report to the chief officer ion deck in 5 minutes.
Found the chief officer (an ex. Royal Marine). Follow me says he. Down the pumproom we go where 4 huge turbine driven cargo pumps are screaming away like banshees. No ear defenders in those days and no remote controls for the cargo valves (loads of them). Chief Officer starts pointing to various valves and indicates I should open them, so first ever job was swinging these bloody great valve wheels. 10 minutes doing that then its up onto deck and more valves to swing. After about 30 mins. of this yours truly was well knackered. First breather I get I actually managed to have a convesation with the chief officer. He asked me my back ground etc. Told him I was straight from school, never been to sea school, only done a taster with Blue Star when I was 14 as my father had been a captain with them until his death and they had offerred me the chance of a coastal trip to see if I fancied the idea of going to sea and if I did they would possibly offer me a job as a apprentice but it meant going to Southampton for pre sea school (fee paying), which we could not afford, hence my joining Canadian Pacific. The chief officer seemed quite interested in my little potted history and asked me what I thought of my first day on board and did I think I had made the right choice.
I said yes I think I had but all this valve swinging was a bit strange as shurely swinging valves was an engineers job.
After he had picked himself up of the deck where he had been rolling around in laughter at my comment, he proceeded to introduce me to the facts of life and work tasks that a very green first trip deck cadet was expected to do. Still after that it did not change my ideas of being at sea but boy, did the story not half get round and I got some ribbing in the bar for days later from both deck and engineer officers, but, as Mr. Everitt would say, it was all done in the best possible taste.
As posted before I can honestley say I never experienced any oil and water between the officers and certainly we all treated the ratings as equals and often had them up in our bar and they would invite us down to their bar. Birthdays, crossing the line, any special occasion, bar-b-ques, it was all on board mucking in together and it was unspoken, but everyone was aware of it, that at these social gatherings, your rank on board meant nothing and you left it at your cabin door when you came out to attend the gathering.
rgds
JA

[Captain Kong]

I can remember on my first trip on a London Greek tramp, 60 years ago, the Engineers had their own mess room and the Mates and Sparky had their own Mess. Cant remember what Nationality they all were. They all seem aloof, on a tramp, a very un happy ship. I was going to throw myself over the wall a few times. A copy of the trip is in Roy Derhams book, Maiden Voyages.
I will print it out and put it on here one day .
Brian.

[Capt Bill Davies]

Just an afterthought to my previous. Five in one class went to sea, which was not unusual in schools found in a port environment I would say.

I can even recall the Nuns and Christian Brothers in my prep school having a fair amount of knowledge and vocabulary which was not known or probably used elsewhere. I am not saying bad language, just phrases used by pupils whose parents were ship associated.

Wallasey/Birkenhead was thriving those days. Crossing the Duke Street bridge would be busy at 0300 hrs.

Brgds

Bill

[j.sabourn]

I'll bet the Sparky was Irish Brian. Cheers John Sabourn

[j.sabourn]

John you were lucky to be supplied with working gear. In the early 50"s all such was supplied by every crew member by themselves. I did attend the S,S,M.C. which was an old ex youth hostel at Prince Edward Road. I did the 2.5 terms and did not complete when reached 16 was away. As regards fee paying at these Institutions I received a Council grant which paid the fees and travelling expenses, believe you would only get this if you were considered poor enough. The head of that Dept. was Capt. Moore a long time dead now, seem to recollect it was either him or someone else who died with chicken pox of all things, going all through the war and dying with what was considered a childs disease. The very first lecture was what is a cargo ship. It is a vessel divided into compartments by bulkheads and in these compartments are carried various commodities, funny how the very first words always stick. The same as every subject I suppose. Any punishments, the offender had to write out either Article 9 or 15 the two longest, so many times depending on the severity of the crime. Probably why I learnt them word perfect early on. There was also a black market on these as people used to write them out and sell to any offenders and was an ongoing trade. We were given a list by the company of working gear and such, most of which was totally the wrong type of gear, so usually had to borrow from other seamen. Regards John Sabourn

[John Albert Evans]

On the ships I was on I cannt say I saw much ,shall we say snobbery between the various depatments and ranks.
The deck officers and engineers ate in their own saloon. They were served by the stewards.
The Deckhands and firemen had their own mess and were served by their own steward, the peggy.
The catering staff ate were they could.
Everyone had their own place. It was th accepted norm.
I never sailed on a ship that had a bar.
However I do remember we had an Electrician on board one tanker, it was his first trip and he thought he was God. When he was sat in the saloon during mealtimes he used to hold his hand in the air and click his fingers to indicate he wanted serving. What a silly think to do. The steward would shout into the pantry serving room The Electrician would like his breakfast or his coffee or his lunch etc..
He never knew what the stewards did to his food before it was served to him. If he did he wouldn't have eaten it and he would have stopped clcking his fingers, after about two weeks The Chief Steward had a quiet word with one of the Chief Officers and the clicking fingers stopped.

John Albert Evans