Bye.bye, Red Ensign on the Queens.

[Capt Bill Davies]

Ivan,

John Prescott will continue to fight his own corner as he has done all his life. He, more than anyone, is responsible for turning the Red Ensign into the FOC it is today.

Bill

[robpage]

If you can believe in him, well the moon must be made of cheese, biggest ar***hole to the British MN. Full Stop.

Ray

Sometimes you need a big A--Hole to make the biggest smell , and even I who normally have no time for Lord Pressmyfistinyourface applaud his efforts to retain the tonnage under British Registry . Why should the Royal Navy defend ships with foreign registered ports on their stern , dio the Bermudians and the Barbadians pay towards the British armed services ?

And the guys who sail on FOC vessels with a Russian Skipper , an Indian mate , a Korean Engineer , how do they communicate with each other , is it broken English , can that lead to defects in commands ? , only a question that came to mind

[Capt Bill Davies]

And the guys who sail on FOC vessels with a Russian Skipper , an Indian mate , a Korean Engineer , how do they communicate with each other , is it broken English , can that lead to defects in commands ? , only a question that came to mind

Rob,

Let me answer part of yours above as I feel there are many misconceptions made about FOC vessels as there is much is put out from those who have little or no experience of sailing in them.
I was in command in FOC vessels from 69 to my retirement in 2005.
In the 70s to mid 80s it was common to have a ' league of nations' as mates and engineers. Often, there were no two nationalities the same. Owners frequently opted to have the Master and Ch.Eng from Germany, American, Greek or UK (Germans/Americans were well ahead of us in this respect they had been common in FOC since its inception). There was never a communication problems. The ratings on the other hand were never mixed. They could be Caribs, Cap Verde or the usual Filipino, Chinese et al. This of course is important.
From the 80s it was often the case where I was the only 'round eye' on board with the mates and engineers the same nationality. These could be Japanese, Greeks, Chinese, Indian or Russian. The ratings were overwhelmingly Far Eastern, usually Filipino or Chinese. Again there was never a problem with communications.
I have heard some stories of ships which you are referring to but in the main these were few and far between and I would say did nothing to enhance perceptions of FOC.
The US owned FOC fleet from the likes of Ludwig, Kaiser, Marcona, Ogden et al were in every respect superior to anything the British Flag had to offer even in the the golden years. And that is hard to say from an old china boat man like me.

Brgds

Bill

[robpage]

My last trip was in 2009 , so I am not quite as far from reallity as I may appear to be ,

my question stems from an Article in the Guardian on jan 15th 2011 I quote

" Maersk's global recruitment policy means that, with the exception of Whelan himself and the chief engineer, the ship's 21 officers and crew now come not from Britain but from India, Ukraine, Burma and the Philippines. "It didn't make much sense any more, gathering everyone around," he says, a little forlornly. "A lot of them don't really speak English, anyway."

That is Captain Whelan talking to a Guardian reporter

The article is here A working life: The ship's captain | Money | The Guardian

That is where my Question stems from , and I regarded Maersk as one of the better companies . Assuming that all the crewmen are Phillipine nationals that makes the Officers as being from four different nationalities . I worked with some British nationals that could be difficult to understand with verbal communications , so I reiterate my question , as to the above example how does the Ukranian mate communicate with the Indian second Engineer . Especially in an emergency . I find it a little scarey when the huge unstoppable leviathans cruise past our coast .

[Capt Bill Davies]

Quite simply, in English.

[Ivan Cloherty]

Hello Bill and Ray

Whilst I understand your sentiments expressed in posts # 78 and #81 and my thoughts about John Prescott are probably akin to yours. However I give respect where it is due, the man has taken the time out to answer my letters on the subject of the Red Ensign.

Whether or not his efforts in this enhance his self grandiosement is immaterial, what we need is a conduit to those in the House of Lords or House of Commons who may be able to assist in retaining the Red Ensign as a viable recognisable flag that we were once proud to serve under.John Prescott is that conduit.

If you have another conduit that may assist in this effort to retain the dignity of a flag we loved then please let me know. I for one will continue to try and get the respect for the flag which it deserves. A flag the EEC wants to abolish.

I may not achieve anything by my humble efforts, but I would rather have tried and failed than never have tried at all.

Regards

Ivan

[Capt Bill Davies]

Ivan,

We have had many exchanges on this topic and I want you to know that I really do share your concerns for the once great flag of ours but, the flag we/you are fighting for is not the same as we remember. It is a FOC and nothing more. Using John Prescott as a conduit is one thing but again I believe anything from that man is just 'hot air'. Let us reminisce about the good days in the knowledge that those days are gone and will not return.

Brgds

Bill

[Ivan Cloherty]

Ivan,

.

Brgds

Bill

Bill

Glad to hear you share my concerns about the Red Duster, as sometimes I cannot reconcile your statements in as much as you defend the FOC to the hilt and next stating that the RE is "only" a FOC, and perhaps not worth bothering about.

Be that as it may I would rather have numerous ships sailing under a Red Ensign FOC than another country's FOC, there would surely be some benefits to our economy. Yes the RE will never be the same as we knew it in the eras we reminisce about; but why not try to aid its revival for the future so that those who come to know about it can remember its past and what it once stood for.

Yes John Prescott may be full of hot air and write letters with mangled English, but if we can use this hot air to blow wind through the correct windows of opportunity then why not take advantage of such opportunity.

Anyway nuff said

Kind regards

Ivan

[Capt Bill Davies]

Ivan,

Let us not confuse nostalgia and sentiment for reality. I sailed under the Red Ensign for only 13 years, Deck Boy to Ch.Mate. The first six were spent in the Blue Funnel Line and subsequently in a series of tramp companies. My memories of that period in my life are very dear to me. Now that is the nostalgia and sentiment. On returning to sea late 68 I was impoverished after an extended time ashore acquiring my qualifications and chose to opt for FOC, Universe Tankships to be specific. I joined the 'Apollo' with much trepidation as I had heard all the anti FOC propaganda circulating in British Ships. Surprise, I found the standards every bit as good if not superior to that on British ships which I was aware, from my own time sailing there were slipping albeit of an economic flavour. For the next 36 years I sailed in some great companies (and did very well financially). Now that Ivan is the reality. In conclusion throughout my time FOC I never missed an opportunity to hail a China Boat (BF) at sea or in port, or any of the tramp ship companies where I sailed as an officer. Unfortunately, that tradition did not last too long as they were all finished in the late 70s. My sentiment for the Red Ensign is firmly in the past where I have fond memories of some great shipmates. Alas, that time has passed and we now have a Red Ensign which bears no resemblance to what I remember mannned by people who I would not recognise as seamen in the true context of the word and officers who have qualifications I question.

Brgds

Bill

[Tony Morcom]

For once I am lost for words and am not sure how to respond to Capt Bill's comments without causing, perhaps unwarranted offense. The principals behind Ivan's endeavours remain true and valid. The Red Ensign is a symbol of our Merchant Navy heritage, as is the name Queen Elizabeth, Queen Mary etc. They are British through and through. If the flag of registry is changed then so too should the name of the vessel(s). You should not be allowed to have your 'cake and eat it' as Cunard are in this case.