Bye.bye, Red Ensign on the Queens.

[Captain Kong]

Ray, I never said I was upset, I was just updating a thread,
Last time I was on Queen Mary 2, they had over 400 British crew, which is better than none.

[Ivan Cloherty]

Why are you so upset?, the flag has been a FoC since the tonnage tax maybe earlier. The majority of the crews on the Queen vessels are mostly Filipino and other developing nations.


Ray

Ray, why shouldn't we be upset, we ex-seaman do not like seeing the flag we sailed under disappear from the stern of ships. Perhaps in your eyes we are just being old fuddie duddies with no sense of reality but seeing things through rose tinted spectacles, so be it; but why should we succumb to perceived inevitable progress without complaint or trying to do something about it. To some the "Red Duster" may mean nothing, but a lot of men died whilst serving under it and it is for them we should try and endeavour that it does not fade into history like so many of our symbols which have disappeared in the name of political correctness or economic reasons. What we should be doing is lobbying Parliament to get the law changed about weddings on board ships, that at least would be a start.

Upset that the Red Duster is disappearing from the stern of ships, of course I'm bloody upset!!!!!!!!

[Capt Bill Davies]

Why are you so upset?, .


Ray

My thinking also Ray. Whilst I have sympathy for Brian and Ivans thoughts we are not going to change things. There are to my mind more important things such as the certification and training of the youngsters coming into the profession. A flag does not change the calibre of those onboard. Permit me a little aside. When I first sailed FOC in late 68 I was Mate of a Universe tanker and I thought I would show them. How wrong I was. I met a fine body of men (league of nations) who I could not improve in the competence.

Raise our standards and put pride back into our officers and worry about the flag afterwards. Presently a Filipino et al, certification syllabus is identical to what is pushed out in the UK.

Raise the standard not the flag.
Accidents do not stop because you have a Red Ensign on the **** end.

Brgds

Bill

[Captain Kong]

Hi Bill, I think it is the principle of the Red Ensign we once knew, when more than 50% of world shipping was under it, has now gone. I know we have to accept it is a different world that we now live in, but it is still hard to believe it has been taken off us.
Maybe one day we will be flying the black flag of *****, the way the world is changing, who knows.?

Cheers
Brian.

[Ivan Cloherty]

My thinking also Ray.
Brgds

Bill

Bill, no one was inferring that personnel under a FOC were or are inferior to those sailing under the Red Ensign. I was Supt for a Swiss company that had ships under FOC and our officers were first class seamen of all nationalities in all departments (well mostly!, we also had not-so-good under the RE)

It is not the calibre of the men that I am commenting on, it is the loss of the RE, It is the flag you sail under that gives you the pride that is due to yourself and the flag and there is nothing sentimental about that.

And yes Bill we are not going to change things if we sit back and let it happen, we rallied to the cause in Trinity House Gardens, so what's wrong with wanting to protect our Merchant Navy's National symbol.

I for one would prefer the RE to the EU flag, which is what the EEC wants or any other FOC, and I would not just want it flown from the stern of pleasure yachts but from ships that ply on international trade so that others know we are still around and seafarers proud to serve under it. Alas the flag may not make any difference to you, but it does to me. I'd like to keep it alive for the memory of all those who died to enable us to have this discussion.

Regards

Ivan

[Capt Bill Davies]

Hi Bill,
Cheers
Brian.

Good afternoon Brian,

I really do agree with you and I know we have a lot in common in a career paths etc. My argument has always been the way the flag, and by definition, all that entails has been demeaned. I can almost feel the emotion in the posts (from you and Ivan) but I do not have the energy anymore because i feel that it is all lost. I only had 12 years under the Red Ensign and in this respect feel less qualified than many on the sight but those years I always have always remained special. Don't get me going about my days in the China.

Brgds

Bill

[Capt Bill Davies]

Bill, no one was inferring .

Regards

Ivan

Good afternoon Ivan,

My response is similar to that to Brian. I would have used a double quote if I knew how. What you believe in I am in full agreement but I can't ever see it happening.
I am happy to keep the memory alive. Those you meet being trained up in colleges are not what you, Brian or me would recognise as seafarers. I think we have been here before. Its a job, and probably not their first choice.

Brgds

Bill

[Ray McCerery]

I sailed on Red Duster ships for lots of years and also many other flags, But I find it hard to understand anyone who thinks the demise of the Red Duster, it's the crews I feel sorry for UK crews. some shipping companies have No Brits aboard. We had a proud MN at one time but now it's all down to cost, and unfortunately the Duster is now only a FoC. I had no intention of upsetting anyone, but I only gave my thoughts.


Ray

[Capt Bill Davies]

I don't think anyone was really upset Ray. Its natural to have affection from the flag where you sailed/served your time.

Bill

[Ivan Cloherty]

I sailed on Red Duster

Ray

Hello Ray, you have a right to express your thoughts and none of us would disagree about the demise of British crews as well as British RE. I know that trying to do something about it feels like you are pizzing against the wind at times, but I want to try, even though I may not live to see the day it happens, the chances are getting less and less as time marches on.

Pity we do not have an act similar to the USA Jones Act, (which has just been strengthened) but unfortunately our powers that be, of all political persausions, seem not to realise they live on an island. The Americans this year have been honouring all things Mercantile marine in their country and have awarded over 2000 bravery awards since 1942 to Merchant seamen in peace and war for services to the USA. The Merchant marine gets constant coverage in the Press in the USA to remind its citizens that although they are a joined Continent they are very much dependent upon the Merchant Marine in transporting goods from one part of USA to another, as well as assisting the armed forces in carrying out their duties in the homeland and abroad. Also the reserve fleet is always being updated, older ships scrapped replaced by newer old ships. When did you last see anything like that in our Press.Our old ships are now wearing Ford and Datsun badges.

I'm not having a go at you or Bill and I do understand where you are both coming from, but perhaps I'm just an old sentimentalist

Kind regards

Ivan