Upstairs, Downstairs

[Roger Dyer]

Hi shipmates,........In creating this thread, please understand that although the subject may seem to have the potential for controversy, that is certainly not my intention. As a former A.B. I would stress that during my time at sea I held a genuine respect for most of the officers, both deck and engine-room, with whom I sailed.
About fifty-odd years ago, as a member of the deck dept. I was conscious of the demarcation that existed then between officers and men. Is that still the case I wonder ? Any form of socializing between the two groups was generally avoided and would otherwise have been frowned upon. No doubt this 'separation' was maintained in the interests of discipline and the efficient running of the ship and was as it should be. Generally speaking I think that both officers and men were happy with that arrangement. As we are all aware, respect is something earned, however, unfortunately, I do recall one or two officers (usually junior Mates) who obviously believed themselves to be totally superior beings. On one such occasion I joined a ship where I recognised the 3rd Mate ( who shall remain nameless). Some five years before that he had been a fellow trainee on the T.S.Arethusa where for 18 months we had been in the same ship's company without any problems. When he encountered me on the 'bridge' he obviously recognised me, but made it abundantly clear that he had no wish to acknowledge any prior relationship. Apart from giving helm orders I don't think he ever once spoke to me. How bl---y natural is that? I remember feeling somewhat surprised and saddened at the time, but put it all down to experience. Strangely, about 12 years later our paths were to cross again. I was walking through a large department store in Parramatta, in the outer suburbs of Sydney, Australia, and lo and behold there's the erstwhile Third Mate trying to sell someone a bed. Totally amazed at the smallness of this world of ours, I said "hello" and held out my hand, much to his embarrassment I think. It was like shaking hands with with a jellyfish. To his credit, he no longer looked down his nose at me After a short meaningless conversation I walked away thinking 'oh my, how the mighty have fallen' (I say that with no disrespect to furniture salesman).
In contrast to this fellow, I met many other officers who were completely different in attitude. One that still comes to mind was Dave Godfrey who back in the summer of 1960, was 3rd Mate on G.S.N.C's 'Woodwren'. Dave was a really genuine, decent young fellow who treated all with the same level of respect and, unlike some, spoke to you rather than 'at' you. Another that comes to mind was Eldon Warwick. He was 3rd Mate in 1961, when I sailed with him on UBC's 'Baltic Spray'. Eldon had a wicked sense of humour and there was nothing pretentious about him. It wasn't beneath him to, on a whim, pick up a chipping hammer and lend a hand. At the time, we both shared a passion for 'Trad'jazz and anything by Ray Conniff, who was making some wonderful arrangements of the 'old standards' and was quite popular. An hour on the 'wheel' went very quickly when Eldon was around. He and I shared many a yarn both on and off-duty although we didn't socialise ashore. I sensed in him something of the 'rebel' although it must be said that he came from a very respected seafaring family. His father, Bill, for whom Eldon had great respect, would, a few years later became the first Master of the QE2 and Commodore of Cunard. His brother, Ron, would also follow in his father's footsteps. I often wonder whatever became of Dave and Eldon, perhaps someone here can satisfy my curiousity
As said before, I've no wish to create controversy, but would be interested to hear from any other members who, coming from the lower-deck ( deck, catering or engine-room), can still recall certain officers, for reasons both good and bad (preferably good). Similarly, some of 'our' former officers must surely have a few 'horror' stories or perhaps something nice to say about some of the men they sailed with.
.....cheers to all, Roger.

[Captain Kong]

Hi Roger,
I met Eldon on board his father`s old ship, the old Queen Mary, in Long Beach, California, in 2006. We had a week on board for the "Tribute Dinner" for Commodore Ron Warwick. just before he retired.
The three sons of the late Commodore `Bil` W.E. Warwick were all there, William, Ron and Eldon.
Eldon lives in Yorkshire now. He was a very lively and entertaining fellow and I enjoyed his company, I have a photo of him when we were in the Observation Lounge on the Queen Mary.

As for upstairs, downstairs, There definately was a big distinction in the old days, I knew what apartheid felt like. as ABs we were classed as some form of sub human who were only there to make a cup of coffee on the bridge or to clean up after them.
After 20 years I decided to join them, I took my Mates and Masters tickets and by then the whole game had changed. Everyone was on first name terms and socialising together, I still made my own coffee on the bridge tho`.

[Doc Vernon]

Hi Roger
Great post there mate and yes it was like that in the days we remember wasnt it,although as you said too there were some who were at least Civil haha!
Being in the Catering however i myself never had too much to do with the Brass ,but did walk on the other side (so to speak) when i saw one ! Kept out of Eyesight,the best way i thought!

But i think things have changed dramatically these days,and am sure there is not that feeling of (Apartheid) anymore as Cpt Kong puts it ,but more of a togetherness amongst all Crew! Well i hope so in this day and age!

Having said all this ,i do remember that on occasions we did mingle with the officers,at certain times and most to me were OK! At the crossing of the line ceremonies we came in contact with some,and had quite a laugh too!
Also at some Deck functions,like the Night Dinner Dances etc we would talk to some of the Officer Crews,but this didnt happen very often at all!

I dont know what it was like on the other sorts of Ships (Cargo,Tankers etc) but i suppose much the same!
Thanks for the post Roger!
Cheers

Yes indeed its a very very small World out there!
No place to hide Roger haah!
Given it a Fiver mate! (stars that is)

[Peter Harrison]

I always remember the Captain of a ship I was on pulling me up for never calling him Sir. I always referred to him as Captain. Some Years later whilst working ashore I visited the now defunct power station in Blyth. Spotting him in the gatehouse he was now a double striped security guard. before he raised the gate barrier he enquired Can I help you Sir? Oh yes I replied Im here to the manager Iam in charge of the maintainance team on the boiler repair. I didnt have the heart to jog his memory of some 20years early.However I always had quizical looks later when handing him my gate pass.

[Glyn Jones]

AS a cadet in the late 50s we where treated lower than the deck crowd, although most of the deck crowd treated us pretty good, but constantly told by the Mate not to fraternise, how could you help it when you worked alongside these guys, either on watch, dayworking or both, I learned a lot from the Bosun and ABs, and later when i became an "officer" I had a lot of respect for the deck crowd.

[happy daze john in oz]

As an officers steward with UCL I noticed a distinct difference between deck and engine officers. The majority of engineering officers including the chief Abercrombie always treated us as human beings, but the deck officrs were a differnt kettle of fish. We werte as far as they were concerned just there to run at their beck and call. There were a few who were O.K. Snowden comes to mind as being good but he was one of very few. Best one I ever met was old Bill Ford chief fridge engineer and a pure gentleman.

[Roger Dyer]

Hello to all and many thanks to Brian (Captain Kong) and all other shipmates who have responded to this thread thus far. Your collective comments have confirmed, for me, that the 'demarcation' which I mentioned was not just a figment of my imagination, but something we all experienced and were subject to. It's good to know that in today's Merchant Navy there exists a far more cordial relationship between officers and men. As long as this friendly atmosphere does not adversely effect the efficient running of the ship it must surely make for a better working environment.
Brian, I was delighted to read that as recently as 2006 you met my old shipmate Eldon Warwick and that, like me, you found him to be an interesting and engaging companion. l was glad also to learn that the Eldon I knew all those years ago hadn't really changed and at that time (2006) was still alive and well and living in the sunny climes of Yorkshire. That must have been a brilliant week you had in L.A. for Ron Warwick's 'send-off'. Would like you to know that I have the utmost respect for men, such as yourself, who through many hours of study and application managed to make it 'Upstairs'. Anyway, tomorrow I'm off to spend 3 or 4 days on the Hawkesbury River in my little motor cruiser......Starboard easy, bring her round to.............you see, I too finally made it 'Upstairs' (in your dreams sonny, I hear you say)
...Best Wishes to you all, Roger.

[Colin Hawken]

My first Ship was the Stirling Castle.The 2nd.Mate was a man from Sunderland named "Tommy" Cable. He was a complete Gentleman.He spoke courteously to everyone,even the newest Deck Boy (Me). I'm sure he'll have crossed the bar long ago.I,for one,will never forget that man.

[Albert Bishop]

Maybe the type of ship made a difference, Came across the odd one with delusions. But cant say I ever found it too much of a problem on tramps and tankers, Cheers, Albi

[Bill Cameron]

In my experience Shell Tankers encouraged the Them and Us policy. I especially remember the Officers Club in the refinery in Balakpapan, a beautiful place, swimming pool and all the trapping of the Raj type gentry.
We ratings had to make do with a few bamboo huts, that doubled as the bar and brothel, at the time there was also a curfew from 10pm to 6am in place and hell mend you if your were caught by the military at those times. Officers were escorted back to the ship in the Company Mini Bus. an ill divided world.