What and how did blue funell fold up

[Ron B Manderson]

info I have is true(I think)
Did you know that each ship in blue flu was reg as a differant company.
There fore any trouble would only be on that ship.
Arrested? only that ship , not the whole company.
My Brother was one of the accountants that had to do the dirty work.
And he won't tell me what went on.
Ron the batcave

[Kenneth Kenny]

We had many strikes over dirty cargoes,and Container's,but we still worked ships in the 1970s -80s-90s with Container's,my brother Alex was on a Blue Star Ship in Boston the docker's were on strike for Three Months over Container's,they were against them,the ship was strike bound.Ken.

[j.sabourn]

Most British companies registered each ship as a different company. There was probably some tax advantage somewhere. It definetley covered them for any claims against one ship and the particular company, so any claimant could not claim more money by the selling of other owned vessels. A dodge as said nearly every shipowner did. The only claimant who had no claim against the ship regarding crew claiming for wages etc. was the master, as he was the person whose name was on the registration certificate. Was with one company who had to sell the ship in Montreal to pay the crews wages. They were a Yugoslav crew and got some fancy lawyer working for them, probably someone like C. Blair or our P.M. Cheers John Sabourn

[Kenneth Kenny]

All the British Shipping Company' got taken over by P.and O.one by one,were are they now,who took over them, might be Carnival.Ken.R634898.

[leratty]

John, re post 13, with respect why is it "a dodge" to register differing Co's for-within a large Co? It is commercially prudent. We did the same thing in the mining industry every project was contracted under a separate Co which yes allowed losses etc to be washed through the whole Co similarly vice versa profits. It was-is quite legal. We do it as well in our bushiness. We always ensure that each entity is fire walled against legal claims et al on an individual Co, similarly each Co is owned via a series of shelf Co's in what many say are tax havens. Not always the case as when doing biz internationally one has to be commercially prudent. Why would we allow a Co that deals in China or an African country where the commercial law per se does not exist as we know it put the whole caboose at risk, you would not would you?
BMN lost out as the ship owners as well as dockers & port authorities were not only complacent, but resting on their laurels. The dockers because the were frightened of modernisation thus job cuts so they cut the industry's throat in a fit of pique which affected the BMN. They the others were just negligent with sad moribund management to whom imagination was a foreign word, just as the British steel, car, ship building industries et al were never modernising or updating their methods or equipment. In a word asleep at the wheel. Christ just remember Leyland, what a joke their cars-buses-trucks were in the end.
The mining industry has been going through that very same thing with employees for fifteen years. Watch Aus, it is about to receive a HUGE kick in the nuts as more & more current as well as planned mine operators start to use fly in fly out off shore labour (the Gov't both state & fed are accepting this) as the wages - conditions spiral is so out of control it is beyond laughable. I know of Co's, including UK ones set up in Asia who will not tender or quote let alone manage or have any part of Aus mining, tunnelling, port infrastructure construction, nor mine, rail construction etc they would rather work elsewhere. China is buying up mines, gas & oil projects both existing or future then pressuring the Gov't to allow this & they will it is nonsensical to not as the industry is loopy there.
Oh try telling that to an Aus mining party, hilarious when they try to justify the wage costs & conditions. I know of several big Co's employing international management consultant Co's to figure out what to do. I had one an international mob out of the UK who just six weeks ago come to us & ask us for input into their report. We said polity 'negatory' explaining why we never want anything to do with that industry in that part of the world!

[Red Lead Ted]

Wasn't just blu flu mate all the Liverpool outfits suffered the same fate, Time and Motion were all over the ships in the mid to late 70s shore gangs were getting smaller crews were signing G.P. Articles Port Boats, Harrisons, Blue Flu, Blue Star, and many more outfits registered all over the country were mostly general cargo ships with tween decks and lower holds they sailed and never returned. A lot of there crews took them to scrap and flew home the ships never returned Containerisation came more to the fore you can search on the net and find many ships that sailed out of Liverpool and other major ports were simply abandoned after there crews were paid off. they were surplus to requirement dockers the country over were taking redundancy as early as 1974 the writing was on the wall for all the big outfits, Do you remember Frank Bourne, Seaforth lad, He was one of the last I new of that would travel to any pool for a ship that was in the 90s Mann island was shut along with most of the shipping officers in Liverpool. One by one the lock gates from the pier head down were not of any use lock gate men were paid off bobby,s on the gates of Liverpool docks were paid off. I met a guy in the hospital last week we had this same chat he came ashore and was in the C.P.R. Shore gang when they folded he joined the dock board shore gang as a rigger but they all lost there jobs by 1980 in fact Ken Kenny on this site will no more about the shore gangs he was one of them. But I think we could all see the signs by 1978 Apart from the Freeport The rest of the dock road as you know was getting closed to the public wasn't just Liverpool docks Glasgow/ Cardiff/ Belfast/ And many more suffered the same fate the country over. Look at the unions that employed not only seaman, Dockers/Ship builders/ And any other Nautical the ships chandlers that once graced the Liverpool dock road vanished along with there worker,s The dock warehouses were left to rot the cranes stood still for years they wern,t needed once the conventional cargo ships went. And in my opinion it all happened very quickly. When we traded with the world over and not what the E.U. Designated think of the cargos and the smells that will stay with you forever I can still smell the sugar berth Harrisons the banana,s from the skin boats on the west side the tobacco the textiles the timber from the palm boats palm oil not to mention deck cargo from the world over.Passenger ships along the Pier Head the traffic that would be constantly on the move the goods trains at one time we had three different railway systems along the dock road. They are just a few of the many cargo,s handled on our home ports not to mention ships that loaded and unloaded from every corner of the world ships registered in ports that you couldn't spell let alone read. Yes agree mate we lost a lot when the shutters come down on the warehouses never to be lifted again. But then that's what is known as progress I am afraid the same progression hasn,t done the youth in this city any favours because I don't doubt that a lot of these young lads thrown on the scrap heap in this city would have followed in our footsteps as we did our own Fathers. Regards Lads Terry.

[j.sabourn]

Certainly brings back memories. Was probably invented by some individual wanting to make a fortune which he probably did. Never really cottoned on to the ships I was on. However others may have found a use for to keep the owners happy. Nowadays you have I believe government ship inspectors replacing the old ships surveyors who go by a printed form to tell them what the requirements for vessel are, probably a university graduate earning a few bob on the side, no knowledge of shipping in a lot of cases, however with a printed check list who can go wrong. Times as we knew them have gone through all the various areas of ship management and at the end of the day have proved nothing as have finished up with nothing also. Shipowners have finished up with what they wanted all the time cheap labour, the government has made the usual wrong assessments of completing the destruction of the British Merchant Service, which someday someone will rue. However those responsible will be a long time dead and there will be no comeback, as history will not be written as it actually happened, the blame as it usually is will be on the seafarers and unions as it usually is in a free enterprising society, anyone claiming different will be called a communist, although in a free democratic society why this party should carry such stigma I fail to see. With a bit of luck the usual 2 party system will get a big shock in the not too unforeseeable future. Cheers John Sabourn

[j.sabourn]

If I was a legitimate business man what need would I have to work under an alias. It is certainly a dodge of some kind whatever you may say different. To an entrenenpeur of course it is legitimate. This in that case is what the average shipowner was an entrenapeur. The same is practised to this day and we know it is a safeguard against prosecution and is legitimate. Even the Q ships during the war were legitimate as they were involved in a war. I believe by British law all businesses practicing in UK have to show there profit margins every year for various reasons, one being tax. How do these big shipowners do, do they show the parent company, I very much doubt this. Cheers John Sabourn

[leratty]

John, yes you do have a point though it is not 'working under an alias' it is a 'separate entity' from the parent Co & do you not see companies with their directors being paid directors who are there for name only? On saying that however if the party/Co is not breaking the law tax or other wise rather abiding by it or keeping within it then why do you think it is a dodge or not legitimate? After all do you not, or your A/c for instance claim whatever they can on your tax return to minimise same. When I went out on my own I was advised by a really interesting man who had made his fortune from scratch without any form of education two things. One was, 'take your operations to the line however do not even let the shadow cross that line, particularly when it comes to taxes.' The other was 'a deal is not done until the money is in the bank & the cheque cleared.' Believe me I soon found out about the truth of that one.

One other thing I learned was in regards 'retentions' i. e. money held back by a client for guarantee of rectification of any warranty problems. In our case this could be a couple million & we might have up to three or four at any time out there, try getting that back at end of warranty period from a Gov't client! So what one does is either not take on Gov't contracts or pad the price so you are covered, naughty but sensible.

When we paid off our Aus staff eons ago when we sold our Aus biz interests some went on to the new owner, though many not. Anyway one said when he came to say good bye this to me & I thought it was so right, 'Richard I have only my labour to sell, if I do not get paid what I think is fair then I must leave' His new remuneration was less than we were paying him. I reckon he was a wise man, sadly he was one of those not re employed as far as I know ever again. I might add one of those bushiness was bankrupt within two years, how that occurred when it was a cash flow positive as you were paid for, yes I mean 'paid' for your raw material which covered almost 75% of the Co's overheads, an almost unheard of business situation I will never know.

[robpage]

There are a Lot of ways around the system John , I have seen what was described as clever accountancy , in what was a failing business produce figures that were at best imaginary at worst fraudulent . The directors managed to get retainers as consultants to help the receivers , and the assets were worth nothing like the book value . Over the years I have seen some local companies perform accountancy feats that are unbelievable , because the young enthusiastic bankers have little or no experience , in their pre bank collapse days a local company secured a loan against twenty five lorries , each worth over £50,000 . The idiot that did not do his job properly failed to spot that they were leased . Several companies I have seen go to the wall , always have a director or two that seem to prosper out of the wreck , makes you think that honesty is not always the best policy