A disgraceful Government Minister

[Ivan Cloherty]

Ref Terry's post #60

When we sailed on the Suez adventure in 1956 we had some of these tough SAS/Commando types on board, they were laid low with Mal de Mer when crossing the Bay of Biscay, god knows how they would have faired on the Arctic convoys

[Roger Dyer]

Hi Ivan..........re your post #60.,

In my view, to cast doubt upon the hardiness or courage of the S.A.S. simply because of the ignorant, arrogant and insulting remarks of a former S.A.S. officer ( nowadays a political 'f--kwit') does them an injustice and I'm surprised that you would seek to discredit them in such a way. That's not like you at all, mate.

As for mal-de-mer, is it reasonable to equate a person's seasickness with a lack of hardiness or courage? During the winter of 1960-61 I was an E.D.H. on Runciman's 'Caxton', which was primarily engaged in carrying newsprint from Canada to the U.K. The master, Captain Wilson, was a fine seaman and, on one occasion, the way in which he handled his ship during several days of Beaufort Force 9-11 convinced me he was not lacking in hardiness or intestinal fortitude either. It was widely known at the time that Captain Wilson suffered quite badly with seasickness every time he crossed the 'pond', summer or winter.As you would know, any seaman suffering from seasickness simply had to carry on, it was expected of him, however, for a 'landlubber' that acute feeling of nausea can seem like hell on earth and sometimes can weaken the resolve of even the hardiest of men (or women).

I suppose what I'm really trying to say is that I do not see how we advance the cause of our Arctic veterans if we, as former professional seamen, make disparaging remarks about former professional soldiers, just because their Regiment once made a glaring misjudgement about the suitability of one of it's officers, who has since been revealed to the world as a grade 'A' buffoon.

.........................regards, Roger.

[Tony Morcom]

Fair point Roger and well put.

[Ivan Cloherty]

Roger

I have replied to your post, but it disappeared from my screen before I could finish it, so here goes again.

I unreservedley apologise if my post was seen as a slur on our fine military men, past or present, it was not the intention.

It was not my intention to cast a slur on our military men, but it was centred on the Crass Gentleman, but I failed miserably on this occasion to convey that. I was trying to say, and failing miserably, I wonder if the man would change his opinion if we could get him aboard a small ship crossing the Bay in a severe storm, where seas come at you from all directions.

Roger and all, I unreservedley apologise sincerely for any slur that may have been cast, it was not my intention, but thank you for drawing it to my attention.

As my mother used to say "It is better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all possible doubt" Perhaps that is a code I should live by

Sincerely Ivan

[Tony Morcom]

Very well said Ivan.

[Keith Tindell]

Hi All, I would suggest that this D***head politician would be banging his desk in his office if the central heating was to pack up, never mind the temperatures those guys had to deal with, knowing at any time they could be in the oggin, and that was it , all over Keith Tindell

[Roger Dyer]

Ivan,

Your gentlemanly apology was not really necessary, mate, and I don't think anyone on this site thinks you're a fool (far from it) so don't worry on that score. I'm sure we all understood the sentiment behind your comment, but I could see a danger if ,by our comments, we were to visit the sins of Mr.Goose on past or present members of his former regiment. Anyway, no harm done.

..........Roger.

[Captain Kong]

This is from the Daily Mail...............
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Forecast Minister finally apologises for 'Gaddafi' insult to Arctic Convoy heroes in medal campaign (but still says they don't deserve to be decorated)By Daily Mail Reporter
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Last updated at 1:45 PM on 11th December 2011
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Insulting: Andrew Robathan has angered the Second World War heroes
Veterans minister Andrew Robathan has apologised to Arctic Convoy heroes after remarks he made about their campaign for a medal.
But he still says they don't deserve to be decorated.Mr Robathan has faced growing calls for his resignation following comments in which he compared the Arctic veterans' claim for a medal to the high number of honours dished out by dictators like Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein.
But when challenged, Mr Robathan said he regretted his choice of words.
He said: 'I admire these people and I respect them enormously and it was never my intention to offend them and I apologise.
'I think it was an unwise choice of words but it was not intended to cause offence.
'The point I was trying to say was that we have traditionally been fairly sparing in medals that we give people.
'The government, however, is looking again at medals and it will be without the input of government ministers.
'It was never my intention to offend people who gave up their youth for service in this country.'
During a debate in the House of Commons on Tuesday, Mr Robathan also claimed medals were only awarded for campaigns that showed risk and rigour.
This sparked anger from veterans who argue they deserve their own medal for the daring supply missions the 66,500 sailors made through thick ice to keep the Soviet Union fighting in the war.
Commander Eddie Grenfell, the 91-year-old leader of the Arctic Medal campaign, was at the House of Commons when Mr Robathan made his remarks.
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Mr Grenfell, of Portsea, Hampshire, said: 'We do not accept his apology because it wasn't just that remark about Gaddafi, it was other things he said.
'This is not the first time this man has insulted us.
'He is only making his excuses now because he is being attacked for what he said.'

Mr Robathan previously clashed with the Arctic Convoy veterans in when he questioned whether it was their dying wish to have a medal.
Mr Robathan added: 'I'm not suggesting there wasn't risk and rigour in the Arctic.
Perilous mission: More than 3,000 British sailors died on the Arctic convoys
'The Arctic Convoys of course showed risk and rigour but 65 years ago they were awarded the Atlantic Star.
'There was the most appalling risk and rigour but what I'm trying to explain was that the government is having a review and it's whether we give them another one.'

More than 3,000 British sailors died on the convoys to keep the Soviet Union supplied and fighting on the Eastern Front. They braved treacherous freezing seas and ran a deadly gauntlet of Nazi U-boats and warplanes.
Of 1,400 ships on 78 convoys – described by Winston Churchill as 'the worst journey in the world' – 101 perished in the icy waters north of Norway.
Veterans Minister Mr Robathan, a former soldier who was awarded a medal for running a prisoner-of-war camp in the first Gulf War, faced a clamour of demands for his resignation after likening the Arctic medal campaign to notorious authoritarian regimes which handed out so many medals it diminished their worth.
Hell in the Arctic: Apart from the appalling cold, British seamen were under constant threat from U-boats, warplanes and battleships
He said: 'Medals in the UK mean something. Authoritarian regimes and dictators often throw around a lot of medals.
'One can look, for instance, at North Korean generals who are covered in medal ribbon, or Gaddafi, or Saddam Hussein. We have taken the view in this country, traditionally, that medals will only be awarded for campaigns that show risk and rigour. Some regimes give out very large numbers of medals whereas we, traditionally, do not.'
Gemma Doyle, a Labour defence spokesman, said: 'These are sick comments and a slap in the face to the heroes who took part in one of the most perilous campaigns in the Second World War.
'For anyone to insult them is unacceptable, but for the veterans minister to do so is outrageous.'

Unsung: One of 78 convoys that braved frozen seas to help win the war
Lieutenant Commander Dick Dykes, 92, who took part in the Arctic Convoys aboard HMS Honeysuckle, said: 'It was a disgusting thing to say. He doesn't deserve to be in the job.'
Miss Dinenage, who has backed the convoy veterans' medal battle for a decade, said: 'The words were extremely ill-judged.
'It is impossible to overstate the sacrifices that these men made and the hardships they endured to secure the freedoms we take for granted.'
Harrowing conditions: Sailors chipping away the ice and snow from the deck of H.M.S. Vansittart while on convoy duty in February 1943. Thick snow and ice covered the decks and upper works of all ships
Some 66,500 men took part in the convoys. If they had failed to deliver the supplies and equipment, Hitler could have defeated the Red Army and turned his full military might against Britain. Only around 200 veterans are still alive, all in their 80s and 90s.
Successive governments have rejected pleas for an Arctic medal claiming the sailors had already been recognised for the separate campaign in the Atlantic.
A Ministry of Defence spokesman said: 'The Government has committed to a fresh review of the rules governing the award of military medals.

'This review will be conducted by an independent reviewer with full consultation with interested parties.'


Read more: Andrew Robathan apologises for 'Gaddafi' insult to Arctic Convoy heroes | Mail Online

[Captain Kong]

I sent a mail to the Prime Minister here it is.......................
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.Dear Prime Minister,
I wish to complain about the insensitive attitude of your Defence Minister Mr Robathan MP.
His comments on comparing those brave heroes of the Arctic WW2 Convoys where 3000 Brave Seamen died in appauling conditions, to Ghadafi, North Korean and Russian Generals.
This `man` is obviously unfit for Office. The Seafaring fraternity of Great Britain is up in arms about his crass comments.
We all would appreciate it if you dismissed him. He is not good for the Conservative Party or the Nation.
Thank you for your time,
Yours sincerely
Capt. B. Aspinall
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[Michael Lawrence]

[QUOTE=Roger DYER;75461]The emotion I experienced after reading the comments made by Andrew Robathan M.P.in the presence of Arctic Convoy veterans is not easy to describe - 'blind fury' comes close.




I once over heard an R.S.M of the Greenjackets at a dispersal point in Hanover tell a couple of '' Ruperts and Rodneys' who were making remarks about the amount of Marks a Cpl was exchanging for Sterling, 'When you know as much as a corporal your be paid as much as a corperal so please shut up sirs and change your money'. My R.S.M. and i went somewhere quiet to convulse!!!