End of the red ensign???

[j.sabourn]

Going back to the posts on unions. I have mixed feelings on this. Like others I was always a member of the MNAOA and NUMAST, believe they are now called something else. I did at one time call on them for a Solicitor which they did supply.I was on UK ships which did not accept union interference and they could do nothing. In Australia one had to be a member of the merchant service guild to gain employment, but to get membership of the Guild was extremely hard for some, I was lucky I suppose. A percentage of salary was paid to the Guild, and as said in previous posts the conditions I have never seen better. However I had slight misgivings about some practices, however having been messed around by other shipowners in the past I shoved them to one side. The maritime unions were very strong twenty years ago, this was through the closed shop system, but over the time I have lived here their strength has somewhat diminished. I have always been a member of a union and believe it is every mans right to with hold his labour, if this is done en mass it is more affective. It is against my way of thinking however to see this power used for stunts and political leverage. I would not vote for a member of parliament who was an ex union official as would always have doubts about his ethics. This of course also appertains to other professions. Cheers John Sabourn ps another profession would be a shipowner.

[happy daze john in oz]

In March I asked the Purser on QE how many weddings have you had, he said `None`.

Princess line boasts as being the first company to hold a legal wedding at sea some time back in the 70's. They do advertsie the fact that weddings can be carried out.
As to the mention of Bermuda having it's own version of the Ensign, that is true but the fact remains that it is legal for ships registered there to fly the duster.

[Keith at Tregenna]

The ensign is not halting, pos in trade, never in histoy.

2013: Will be the year of the Convoy.

K.

[Capt Bill Davies]

Going back to the posts on unions. I have mixed feelings on this. .

Never had any mixed feelings about Unions or anyone associated with them for that matter.

Brgds

Bill

[EIFION]

Relax , if it is in the Daily Mail it is bound to be a pack of lies. It is like the bent banana thing , a figment of some hacks imagination

[happy daze john in oz]

Further to my posting on the issue of the flag. I have refered to some old photos and tickets of previous cruises to clarify a couple of points.
In a photo of a P&O cruise ship she is flying the Red Duster and has Hamilton on the stern. On the ticket it states Paciffic Dawn/Bermudan.
On the ticket for Royal Caribbean it states Rhapsody Of The Seas/Nassau and she is flying the Red Duster with an emblem of the country in the corner. Royal Caribbean is part of Star along with Celebrity and Hollan America lines.
Carnival owns P&O Australia, P&O UK, Cunard and Princess, all of which have Hamilton on the stern.
The flag of Bermuda is the Red Ensign with an emblem in the corner, similar to the one of Nassau.
However as previously stated the ships of the companies mentioned as owned by Carnival are all registered in Bermuda, not Hamilton, that is only the port of sailing. As Bermuda is a British protectorate these ships are allowed to fly the Red Duster.
Carnival also owns the Costa lines which I am told are allowed to fly the Italian flag.
An additonal piece of info for you.
The captain Ivan Jerman, born in UK and brought up in the town of Southwold. A cadet at 17 earned his ships masters ticket from Southampton Maratime College in 1985.

[j.sabourn]

Believe that was a good year for Penfolds. Anyhow saying that can only reaffirm what has been said in earlier posts. That during most on this sites time at sea the ships flew the flag of their port of Registry. I have sailed on Gibralter, and ships registered in the Bahamas they flew the bastardized version of the Red Ensign. The law must have been changed to accomodate some of these shipowners, which is not so unexpected, as laws do change to suit. I also sailed on a ship registered in the Cayman Islands another version of the Red Ensign, however was Issued with their Cert. Of Competency for this one. Also liberian and Panama vessels under their flag had to have their cert. of Comp. Also our own Australian Flag have to have their certificate. However as over a period of time re. the change of the cert. structure I suppose a panamanian cert would now suffice to go master on the QE. As said as far as the layman is concerned they could fly the skull and crossbones and wouldnt make any difference to them. With the cert. structure where every country is supposed to be on a level, has anyone ever thought if a person with a panamanian certifcate could go master on a British owned passenger liner. It used to be a standing joke years ago that a fisherman with a Skipper(full) if they put fishing gear on the Queen Mary he was legally entitled to go as Master, in a lot of cases I would rather trust him, than some I have seen at sea in latter years. Cheers John Sabourn

[Capt Bill Davies]

Believe that was a good year for Penfolds. Cheers John Sabourn

John,
That I like and Penfolds being more use.
Why is it that the vast majority of those in our colleges up for these STCW COC are not from these shores? Because the UK ISSUED certificate still carries kudos. Heaven knows why, when it was minuted at the NI of concern that certain UK colleges use lecturers not qualified in the subjects they teach.

Brgds

Bill

[j.sabourn]

Bill, was going through all my old papers and chucking some of them out. Came across the following Masters certs. British, Australian, Liberian, Cayman Islands, couldnt find the panamanian then remembered never actually received, as had completed the 3 months contract on vessel before it came. No doubt someone else used as it had been bought and paid for by the company. All these certs. apart from the Australian one were issued on the strength of the British Cert. The Australian one I had a short conversation with the head surveyor which I suppose was classed as an oral interview. I heard from people who only had a Panama cert. that they went to the Panamanian Embassy or consular office, paid their money and took the exam there. The exam I was told consisted of a written paper only and was in the form of ticking boxes, depending on the number of boxes to be ticked, anyone had a fair chance of passing, I believe the Liberian exam was similar. If the British cert. has to come down to these drastic levels I am pleased I am now retired. Even when they brought the law in about having to revalidate your British Certificate every 5 years I wasnt too pleased about that, as one worked for it and it was supposed to be for life. As regards Flags as John in Oz says about ships registered abroad flying the Red Ensign I cant get my head round that, as feel somehow someone is getting away with something somewhere. Anyhow is nice sometimes to look back on the past, the present they can keep, God help the future. Best Regards John Sabourn.

[Capt Bill Davies]

John,

You really do not want to know what is has come down to now. What we knew and accepted as seamen, shipmates etc you would not recognise.
Further, you have schools in UK affiliated to who knows that push out qualifications to people who want to be 'Captain Sir' of Super yachts and are given 'bits of paper' with something written on it and off they go and look after some equally retarded individuals yacht owners toy.
These individuals would not know an anchor from a propeller but are attracted to something else.

Bill