Grenfell Tower inquiry

[cappy]

##sometimes things occur which have never occured before .....all are wise after the event .....there are times when there are no persons responsible ....but an enquiry must be held ie when a pleasure vessel was capsized because some thing of interest was reported on the port side ...which caused all passengers to run to that side ......would the captain be responsible for reporting the point of interest when it was well within his reason to know if all rushed to port the vessel would capsize......blame after the event is common but advice before not so common......trying to change the happening by falsifying an account should be pursued with great vigour in any enqiry......just my view cappy

[robpage]

Currently Terry they are investigating what the fire officers did on the night and what experience the Watch commander had and what training the Watch commander at had I would much rather see the man from the council who approved that cladding and the man at the cladding manufacturer who gave some fault certification to it standing there rather than a fireman who had done his Duty be quizzed over could have done it better

[Red Lead Ted]

Currently Terry they are investigating what the fire officers did on the night and what experience the Watch commander had and what training the Watch commander at had I would much rather see the man from the council who approved that cladding and the man at the cladding manufacturer who gave some fault certification to it standing there rather than a fireman who had done his Duty be quizzed over could have done it better

Yes Rob, I watched the interview in question on sky news or a part of it, The officer questioned really was lost for words and had to pause for minutes in between questions, This is very unique as the cladding or insulation used has never gone up in flames like that before i am certainly not knocking our Fire brigade in any way, But lets not forget there are high rise buildings all over the country with this insulation fitted, And when you consider it is estimated that sprinkler systems could have been fitted for as little as 10.000 pound on each of these buildings. Someone whoever and there are a few names in the hat as there was at Hillsborough which i only mentioned as an example, Has to be held accountable for the tragic loss of life. After the Taylor report at Hillsborough concluded no blame was to be proportioned, The people of Merseyside especially those of us directly affected fought for a second inquiry and funded it from all over Merseyside whether the people and familys of Grenfell will show the same tenacity if they dont get what they feel is right after there inquiry is down to them. But this must never happen again. Terry

[Keith Tindell]

Fully agree terry, my only question would be, if they fitted sprinklers, apparently, and i only know what i read, was the air gap at the back of cladding was where the fire started and initially spread, so would not have controlled the fire in its initial stage. Much like a thatch roof fire, you can pour water on it all day, its what its designed to reject, and so digging the fire out is the only option.. The system you quote is actually a drencher system and is in use in some buildings in UK. The problem is we are only aware of what we are told by an unreliable public media, but the conclusion will be interesting. But like most incidents of this nature, the shite starts at the top, but very quickly gets passed down to someone much lower down the ladder, kt

[robpage]

a very small system for partial cover in a loft conversion is £2500 , a system for a tower block will be a lot more than £10,000 , a simple pump / tank is around £30,000 , installing the pipework , I doubt it would be less than £60,000 , the problem is not the cost , it's the water damage , the buildings were fine till some one made them pretty with cladding . I have clad a few buildings , the air space is a good insulation , think vacuum flask .

Arconic the French manufacturer off the cladding seem to have discrepancies in their fire rating .

CEP Architectural Facades, which fabricated the cladding panels and windows, said it would not make any submission to the inquiry until it had been granted access to the carcass of Grenfell Tower to do its own investigations, and until more documents had been disclosed.

Celotex, which manufactured the insulation that emitted poisonous cyanide gas when it burned, issued a one-page statement that expressed “its deepest sympathy to the families of all those who lost their lives as a result of the fire”.

CS Stokes, the fire safety consultancy that carried out four assessments of the tower before, during and after the refurbishment, expressed its “deepest sympathies and condolences”.g to what happened

meanwhile the Watch officer is getting quizzed .

[Louis the fly]

We are constantly told this must not happen again yet there are high rise buildings all over the UK still fitted with the same type of cladding which turned Grenfell into a death trap.
Arguments continue over who is responsible for removing the cladding and who is liable for the cost.
This inquiry is starting from the wrong point , it should start from the residents of the tower who were dismissed as trouble makers when they raised concerns over the safety of the building. Then go on to the manufacture of the cladding , the fire tests carried out on it , the council or building managers who commissioned it , the architects who designed the refurbishment of the tower and the people who signed off the work as safe. Only then should the fire fighters be called to give their account.

[Red Lead Ted]

a very small system for partial cover in a loft conversion is £2500 , a system for a tower block will be a lot more than £10,000 , a simple pump / tank is around £30,000 , installing the pipework , I doubt it would be less than £60,000 , the problem is not the cost , it's the water damage , the buildings were fine till some one made them pretty with cladding . I have clad a few buildings , the air space is a good insulation , think vacuum flask .




meanwhile the Watch officer is getting quizzed .

ROB, 10 Grand was the estimated cost when they where fitted with the cladding. Terry

[robpage]

I used steel cladding for years , much cheaper than the alloy stuff , the specification indicates that it was safe , that is where to start . The emotive testimony of the residents is unlikely to add much to the findings , but It may give them some satisfaction and they deserve that , I wonder though Harley Curtain Walling ltdthe supplier of the cladding went bust . This cladding was never fire tested that i s where the real answers lie , the manufacturer claim they Arconic classified Reynobond PE as Euroclass E , Well below required standards , the standard is Euroclass B or the higher rate of A , so there is a lot of covering up going on already

Terry , I still would maintain the tanks and pumps are around £30,000 , I wonder is £10,000 just the fitting charge , and the press are spinning the truth , the bottom line though is about water damage

From Architect's Journal .,
Remedial work including the installation of sprinklers and removal of cladding is set to total £405 million, with £53 million due to be spent in 2017/18, AJ’s sister title Local Government Chronicle (LGC) has revealed.

Communities secretary Sajid Javid announced last week that the government would not provide any funding to councils carrying out fire safety improvement works to tower blocks following the Grenfell Tower fire.

Instead, local authorities are to be given ‘flexibilities’ to increase the borrowing cap of their housing revenue accounts or use money from their general funds to pay for the works.

A survey of the capital’s 32 borough councils and the City of London by London Councils, conducted before Mr Javid’s announcement and answered by 21 respondents, found that the combined costs to install sprinklers was expected to hit £262 million.


A briefing to MPs, a copy of which has been seen by LGC, said six boroughs provided data showing the estimated cost of installing sprinklers across 265 blocks in those areas totalled £113 million.

’This implies an average cost of £426,000 per block, with the implied cost per block ranging from £188,000 to £615,000 at individual borough level,’ the briefing said.

’One borough provided a sprinkler installation estimate of £2m for communal areas, but suggested that this could rise to £4.7-5.6 million if sprinklers were also installed in individual properties.’

In July, the Department for Communities and Local Government vowed to engage with the construction industry to ensure increased workloads are “managed effectively” as contractors worked on safety measures following the Grenfell tragedy.

LGC previously reported that Brent Council wrote to Javid in July asking for assistance in funding a £10 million programme of fire safety works, including retrofitting sprinklers.

However, the council claimed last week it had been told it will not receive any financial help for planned works on the council’s high-rise blocks. The blocks already meet existing fire safety standards.

Croydon Council has also started a £10 million programme to retrofit sprinklers in its 25 tallest blocks and one sheltered block. The council said it wrote twice to the government requesting financial help but added it has not received any to date.

Labour’s Alison Butler, deputy leader and Croydon cabinet member for homes, regeneration and planning, said: ‘Although these improvements will impact on long-term council finances, we’ve always said we would deliver them with or without the government’s help.’

Appearing before the communities and local government committee this week, Javid said councils should liaise with their local fire service to determine what ‘essential’ works are needed, but added that the government ‘will not argue’ with areas that decide to install sprinklers.

London Councils’ briefing also said remedial work to cladding systems on 38 blocks across 12 boroughs was expected to cost £53 million.

’This implies an aggregate cost per block of £1.4 million and, at an individual borough level, the implied cost per block ranges from £385,000 to £3.3 millon,’ the document said.

A further £90 million has been earmarked for upgrading fire doors, electrics and emergency lighting, among other remedial works.

In addition to this, boroughs identified £8m of ’immediate, one-off’ costs associated with staffing, carrying out specialist surveys, and sending out letters and flyers to residents in relation to this issue.

As you can see my guess was unrealistically low average installation of sprinklers is over £200,000

[Louis the fly]

Reading all the facts and figures above it appears to show those in authority consider it too expensive to make high rise buildings safe.
If there is another Grenfell who takes responsibility ?

[robpage]

High rise as built , SAFE , clad it with sandwich type cladding sub Euroclass B UNSAFE , why clad , to improve thermal characteristic .

use sprinklers in high rise , risk astronomic water damage claims

beggared if you do beggared if you dont

so leave it without cladding , insulate external walls , internally , plasterboard and rockwool ,

Who to blame? well if Arconic are truthful , then the incompetent who put the wrong cladding in the specification or the man who ignored that specification , but that many mistakes in that many authorities , tells a story I think