Grenfell Tower inquiry

[Red Lead Ted]

##ask jws and captain kong about enquiries .....it apears to be not to look for answers but to put blame on the folks who were trying to help the overall situation and find there faults .....now its blame the fire brigades for a situation that had never been seen before.......give them a breathing apparatus send them up thousands of stairs till they drop......then blame them for getting it wrong......there are many tragedies not seen before that will happen and sadly some poor bugger will be in the firing line......we are all human beings not bloody robots.....thats my view......cappy

And in your view Cappy would your theory be applicable regarding Hillsborough..................

Hillsborough police chief to face manslaughter trial.
Hillsborough match commander David Duckenfield had applied to have his prosecution stayed on legal grounds. Photograph: Peter Byrne/PA
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The prosecution for manslaughter of David Duckenfield, the former South Yorkshire police chief superintendent who was in command when scores of people were killed during the 1989 FA Cup semi-final at Hillsborough, is to continue to trial, a judge has ruled.

Criminal charges against four other men in relation to the disaster, which left 96 people dead, and its aftermath will also go to trial after the judge, Sir Peter Openshaw, rejected the defendants’ applications for them to be dismissed.

Openshaw decided that a legal bar – a “stay” on prosecuting Duckenfield, which was imposed by the judge Mr Justice Hooper when he heard the bereaved families’ private prosecution of Duckenfield in 2000 – should be lifted.

The Crown Prosecution Service announced last June that it intended to prosecute Duckenfield, following the holding of new inquests from 2014-16, and applied for the stay to be lifted.

Reading out a short ruling at Preston crown court, Openshaw said: “In respect of the defendant David Duckenfield I lift the stay. I confirm that I grant the voluntary bill of indictment to allow prosecution for manslaughter to proceed. I decline to order a stay on that charge.”

Duckenfield faces 95 counts of manslaughter by gross negligence, with the criminal indictment accusing him of breaching his duty “to take reasonable care for the safety of those attending the Hillsborough stadium as spectators in respect of the dangers from overcrowding and consequent crushing”.

The offence of manslaughter carries a maximum sentence of life imprisonment.

Duckenfield, and the four other men, had applied to have the prosecutions stayed on legal grounds.

Graham Mackrell, the former secretary of Sheffield Wednesday football club, which has Hillsborough as its home ground, will face two criminal charges for alleged breaches of safety legislation and his duties as the club’s safety officer.

Mackrell is accused of one offence relating to alleged contravention by the club of its safety certificate, particularly a failure to agree the number and arrangement of turnstiles to admit Liverpool supporters to Hillsborough.

The second charge accuses him of failing to take reasonable care as the safety officer, in the arrangements particularly of having sufficient turnstiles at the stadium “to admit at a rate whereby no unduly large crowds would be waiting for admission”. That second charge also accuses Mackrell of failing to take reasonable care to draw up contingency plans for coping with “exceptionally large numbers of people arriving at the ground” and to deal with situations where the available entrances “have proved insufficient to stop unduly large crowds from gathering outside”.

The maximum sentence for the first charge is two years in prison; for the second the maximum is an unlimited fine.

The CPS was not proceeding with a third charge against Mackrell, Openshaw said. We have only waited nearly 29 years. Terry

[Captain Kong]

This is my own view of the Football disaster, having experienced one my self, where a man saved my life when I was being crushed to a point of death. I ended up with the dead bodies and injured on the pitch and he was then killed in less than two minutes after, This was the Bolton Disaster at Burnden Park, 35 Killed, 500 injured.

A Disaster is Not one mans fault.
It is a chain of events, involving many people and factors and many other people should also be blamed.
First..................
, Fans used to run onto the pitch,
So Fences were built to contain them,................ These fans were also to blame.
Second,............
The person or Committee that decided to install the fences to contain the Fans, ............were also to blame. that is why they were crushed as there was no escape.
Third,
The Fans who were going into that part of the stand pushing the people in front of them, even tho` they could see in front of them the place was too crowded, pushing the other Fans down to the fences where they were crushed to death.
Fourth
The Police failed to stop the Fans from entering that stand. causing the crush to start.

So who do you blame in that chain of events.?/

If there had been fences installed at the Bolton Disaster, many hundreds would have been killed. not 35. Luckily fans could spill over onto the pitch
So again, after 30 years what will the persecution of Duckenfield achieve. apart from Vengeance.???

The only winners will be the Lawyers, who will milk the legal system and make themselves Very Rich. paid for by the Tax Payers.
Duckenfield in gaol will cost the Tax Payers a few million pounds over the lengthy sentence.

The main culprits after the event were the ones who altered the Statements. and the bad organisation of the rescues to get the dead and injured off the pitch and out of the stand.
....................
I have Never Ever watched a Football Match since the Bolton Disaster,
I have Never Ever watched a football match on TV.
That is what it does for you. I do not care who wins what Cup or position in a league, or who wins the world cup.
Not the slightest interest, I have better things to do than get excited over big lads kicking a ball.
Brian

[robpage]

My initial point in starting this thread was I felt that they had sent the local watch officer in charge of putting out a fire in a flat of which I'm sure he was quite capable when he got there the fire in the flat was something much bigger that was way behind this capability or authority now it seems the enquiries asking him what experience did he have of putting out a whole tower block on fire so I felt that he would be put in a situation where he didn't ejaculate and he didn't realise initially that the whole thing was going up and I really thought that the legal Eagles were poking at him for doing his job Billy got to the point where he realised it was much bigger than his job and sent for the reinforcements and somebody in a higher authority I think that that particular watch officer did what he was paid for and did it bravely now he is subject to the scrutiny of Lawyers and journalists

When it comes to Hillsborough and I am by no means fresh in my memory on it you had a chief superintendent I believe in charge in the shape of Mr Dukinfield , who unlike the fire brigade watch officer was senior enough do actually have the authority to deal with what was in front of him my understanding is that he ordered the gates to be opened which in hindsight was probably the wrong decision . That in my point of view makes him incompetent he made the wrong decision in hindsight and with limited knowledge I think that he should have either delayed the start bye one or more hours or had the whole match cancelled but again I'm sure he didn't have hindsight . The wrong decision that he made was contributory to the death of all those people . Now without wishing to be controversial I believe that there should have been a police enquiry at a time and as the guy was a very senior officer and dealt with it in an incompetent manner he should have been sacked . Unfortunately they gathered together and covered up the truth now the incompetence all of a sudden becomes deceit for that I would now happily see the man stand trial and if my understanding is correct and again I am only going on newspaper reports I would hope that for covering up that truth he would receive a custodial sentence .

This is where I see a huge difference the grand full tower was a man doing his job to the best of his ability who called for the reinforcements and a higher authority to take over when he realised that he was out of his own depth which I believe he acted correctly now he is being bullied . In the case of South Yorkshire police you had a man there who should have had the depth of experience and the knowledge of Crowd Control do have dealt with the incident in whatever way has he was the man rightfully in charge he was also the Man Who failed to perform properly so for what I regard as a mistake in his decision I would have seen him punished at the time but because of his cover up I feel that if he is guilty and I'm not on the judge and jury then he should be given a custodial sentence basically as I see it for lying and the deceit that he was involved with

I therefore see it as man1 right at the fire man wrong at the football disaster

[Louis the fly]

When I was taking fire fighting courses the instructors were all serving firemen.
The told us never to use a lift in a building fire. The lift shaft has an upward draught of air and acts as a chimney. Work as a team , in together out together. Keep all fire doors closed to stop the spread of fire and smoke. In Grenfell this was impossible because there was only one stairway , the doors would be open for the fire fighters hoses and for those trying to escape. Use boundary cooling on the outside of the building.
As with the Piper Alpha disaster it takes a major incident and loss of life before changes are made. I want to see the people who made the cladding and those who approved it giving evidence also whoever issued the fire safety certificates.

[Keith Tindell]

Some good points Louis, one point you made , the fire hoses would not have kept any fire doors open as the first thing the OIC for have done is charge the dry risers, this would enable the guys to connect to water on floors, with control on which ones they were using. i fully agree with bringing the real people at fault to justice, before having pops at the fire service. They did not start the fire , they did their best to put it out.
when i was in the job and had a property fire during my shift, the senior officer coming to the office in the morning would call for the details of all the incidents during the night, he would then study them, and then call you in to explain why you did not do this, or do that etc. I pointed out on many occasions, you have had time to sit and study the situation, i had to make decisions in seconds, and that of course is exactly what is happening on this enquiry, the guy leading the enquiry has weeks to look at the situation, the guy on the first two pumps had minutes, kt

[John Arton]

Posts 12 &13 explain in clear language the cause and actions taken at the time and should be read by any lawyer involved in the inquiries.
Rgds
J.A.

[Keith Tindell]

We have two posts running together here John, i presume your 16 is relation to Hillsborough ?, kt

[robpage]

The reason I mentioned HILLSBOROUGH in #13 was to say there was a massive difference between the watch officer with two pumps called to a kitchen fire that was a disaster beyond his pay grade , that he did his best with , and a senior officer who made , in the case of Ch.Supt. Duckenfield , a wrong call , I would not hang him for the mistake , but for covering it up .

[Lewis McColl]

Yes Rob , anyone can make a wrong call we are all human , but if you have not got the balls to put your hands up!!!! then instruct others to lie to cover your ****. Hope the courts shaft the lot of the lying bas----s. Be it Hillsborough or any other inquiry. To often we hear the usual crap lessons will be learnt. As regards Greenfield Tower, the inquiry need to be going after those who knowingly put people in danger, using a product not fit for purpose. Leave the Fire fighters alone, they did the best they could with what they had.

[Red Lead Ted]

The inquiry or intended inquiry, Has to root out those who where at fault and prosecute those who failed in there duty of care this was not a wild fire or a natural disaster it was avoidable just like Hillsborough, So regardless of who is brought to book for there misgivings the families of Grenfell deserve that. There is no bigger unjustice than failing handing out justice itself. Terry.