Israel what is next???

[John Pruden]

i can see the whole of the middle east in conflict soon its a war that will never end memory's are long nobody seems to think who started all this once hamas is in your country they take it over? jp

[vic mcclymont]

Post 78, John, I. Have seen a map of the middle East in ancient times. The land now called Israel, was occupied by the tribes of Israel. Each tribe had its own area controlled by them.
Palestinians are not Arabs, but are believed to have migrated from one of the Greek Islands.
Vic

[Gerard Fisher]

The Balfour Declaration of 1917 has to be considered a blunder of epic proportions. The British Empire made a strategic decision to invite Jews into Palestine, seeing them as allies, a bulwark against the strong French and Russian influences in the region in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The British made a promise of a land that was not in their gift but in the possession of the Turkish Empire which, although in decline, was nevertheless still in existence.

The blunder was compounded by the fact that it was the Zionists who bombed Britain out of Palestine after WWII, not the rightly aggrieved Palestinians. Talk about the Zionist biting the hand that fed; some ally they turned out to be. As for the Palestinians, who never invited the Zionists onto their land, history tells us what happened and is still happening to them. Gaza under siege reminds me a lot of the siege of the Warsaw Ghetto during WWII. Sealed off and then pounded into rubble. The British had the option of leaving Palestine. The Palestinians don't have that option. The land of Palestine is all they know and will continue to fight to reclaim it. They refuse to be ethnically cleansed from their own land.

Israel is currently in a position of strength. However, anyone with an appreciation of history will know how the worm can turn (think, for example, of Northern Ireland demographic change and the worm that has turned in 100 years, putting control in Nationalist hands). It might take decades, or centuries, but I believe that worm will turn in favour of the Arabs in general, and Palestinians in particular. I believe Israel should, from its current position of strength, show magnanimity in seeking to live peacefully with its neighbours by building bridges. They've got a lot to offer the region if only they could overcome their paranoia. It is right that Israel exists to protect the interests of Jews around the world. Nations exist for a variety of reasons. The goodwill of, and co-existence with, your neighbours being one of those reasons. The current Israeli state seems devoid of any collective intelligence. Instead, they are led by rabid populist politicians and religious fundamentalists, a poisonous concoction. In comparison Hamas are partisans in this conflict, no matter what some in the West call them.

What the experience of centuries of discrimination that Jews have suffered seems to have taught them is that the only way to survive is to double-down in any confrontation. Obstinacy will sustain you for a while but will in time be the cause of your downfall. The 70 CE destruction of Jerusalem and subsequent exile of the population of Israel should be a salutary lesson in how to bend with the wind. The state of Israel is just over 9 million in population. Taking away the Arabs in Israel, and adding the Jewish diaspora, there are about 15 million Jews in the world. They are a minority in comparison to the Arabs and should be mindful of this long term weakness. The West strongly backs Israel out of self-interest. However, Israel should never bank on that support lasting indefinitely.

[peter pittman]

seems Israel has got a war on its hands jp

They have made it known they are going to annex northern Gaza, scorch and level the area, with support of some like minded states.

[j.sabourn]

#89 Think I have posted something similar before Tony , but about 1972 without looking at discharge book and after doing two trips from Bandar Mashur to Japan with Naptha . I was taken off for transfer to another tanker in Australia , put in an hotel awaiting a flight . Flight crews from various flights stayed at same hotel. The country even then was at loggerheads , the Shah had recently been disposed and the government departments were back to their old “ you dash me 50 dollars “ and will expedite your departure , I told emigration to eff off , and was only kept out of Gaol by the arrival of the ships agent who put his hand in his pocket. I witnessed the sacking and departure of the Tehran airport manager who was escorted to the departure lounge and sat with me and travelled on the same flight to Malaysia where he got off. A Sir John ? An ex spitfire pilot from WW 2. Iran like most Arab countries is full of thieves vagabonds and un moralistic government people , who are brought up to view it is their eternal right to rob and pillage at will , and their word means nothing. Cheers JS

[Des Taff Jenkins]

Gerard on post95# has is spot on. Warsaw all over again, the Fascist led Israel Parliament has gone for the final solution, much as the Germans did in Warsaw. Last night on TV during a Palestinian demo; a Jewish woman stood up and said she couldn't believe that the Jewish leadership would suggest a Nazi solution in Gaza after what had happened to the Jews in Germany, it made her feel sick, It was obvious that the Palestinian's where being used by Hamas as the Germans where being used by the Fascists in Germany.
Des
Ps. A for America she is rubbing her hands at the money rolling in for arms, for the Ukraine and now Israel, they will have to start building new ships to get them across the water.

[happy daze john in oz]

Hamas attacking Israel in the manner it did was criminal.
But for a country such as Israel to be surrounded as it is there will always be conflict or the threat of it.
One has to question the policy of those in 1948 who granted Israel the land they now occupy.

Israel has the right to defend it's self from the atrocities but it is doing so in a manner which is beyond control.

Israel is sowing seeds that will come to fruition in a generation or so when those then in Gaza bankrolled by Itran will rise up to kill those who in 2023 killed their grand parents in the war.
Next time will be far worse than just some rockets, unless the world can engineer a solution it could well end up in a nuclear one.

[Thomas Daley]

Firstly would like to say that I met and worked with some child survivors of the death camps in WWII in 1980 while working for 'Gold Star Lines', seen and experienced first hand their mindset and you would soon know their reaction/reply to events.

Left the Merchant Navy (Ships) in 1995 to work on self propelled drilling rigs, dive semi's, 6th gen drillships and jack-ups all over the 'Middle East' working with various Arabs of both forms of ***** finishing in 2015 after 38 years working on water.

Read all comments and some amaze me, especially where the Jews are compared to 'Nazis'!!
Where are the ghettos, where are the death camps, where are the gas chambers that the Nazis created to kill 6 million Jews!! One group who remembers that loss are the Jews so their mindset is "Never Forget" and "Never Again".

We talk about the RAF bombing of areas around factories and infrastructures that supported the German war effort no concern for civilians, our aim were to win and eradicate the 'Nazis' who had started this war, we wanted to finish the job.

Camp David agreement between Sadat/Carter/Begin had all Israeli forces returning to the pre-war 1967 borders. The Egyptians took back all of the Sinai Peninsula, but, refused to take back the Gaza Strip ask yourself why.

Oslo Accords between Rabin/Clinton/Arafat resulted in 90% of the PLO demands being granted, opposition to the perceived sellout by Rabin resulted in him being assassinated by a right wing Jew.
After Oslo you had the 'Child' infidata, to derail the agreement and fully 2 years after 'Oslo' the 'Hebron Agreement were signed as another attempt at peace.
A right wing Jew and Military hawk called Ariel Sharon used the army to remove all settlers, all Jews from Gaza between August and September 2005, Gaza were now self governing in 2005 by the PLA, same time a number of settlements and settlers were removed forcibly from the West Bank, all this completed by end of 2005.

January 2006 Hamas win majority of seats in the Palestinian Legislature the self governing parliament in Gaza.
Summer 2007 a Civil War breaks out between Fatah and Hamas, Fatah lose, Fatah banned, many atrocities committed by each side.
Hamas announce their charter is the "Destruction of Israel and eradication of the Jews.
US cuts off funding to Hamas, Gaza has a population of 1.4 million in 2005.
Population of Gaza now (UN) 2.3 million not exactly a concentration camp.

In 1948 Israel accepted their pieces of land in Palestine and declared independence, the Arabs attacked and lost, the victors (Jews) kept their spoils, but, lost their access to Jeruselem.
In 1948 Germany had lost all her lands east of the Oder & Niesse rivers all the way to Prussia which were wiped off the map.
Refugees were in their millions, but, resettled elsewhere in Europe. Does Germany have a right to reclaim those lands, Yes/No?

The Palestinian refugee problem is a humanitarian one of eye weeping proportions that must be solved, the Jews losing their land to people (They say) are not born there, but, they want to wipe out all living Jews!
This will not happen, in 1973 War, Israeli nukes were being readied in case of being overrun.

Why did King Hussien of Jordan displace/expel all Palestinians from Jordan, creating "Black September".
In Lebanon the Palestinians fought the local Falangists ending in Syria and Israel invading, this created 'Hezbollah'.
Why does Egypt and Syria not take in their own cousins/people?
Why does Kuwait and Qatar not allow Palestinians to live permanently in their countries.

At the end of the day it is not a 100% Palestinian versus Jews problem??
It is an inability of the Arabs to take care of and recognise their own kin.

In an attempt to keep to main points have tried to keep to major/specific points and not engage in "Whataboutery"
If I have upset anyone I apologise, but, Hamas is an offshoot of the ****** Brotherhood created in Egypt and now proscribed in Egypt

[Doug Hardie]

re post 100 A lot of sense spoken and there has been a lot of back and fourth from all. I think the main problem is that the UN has not fulfilled its Charter if it had ,a lot of these Wars would not have started in the first place. There would have been a more lasting peace every where and money could have been spent on Humanitarian causes Rather than Guns & weapons . Men who have fought tire of the futility of war. Dh

[Gerard Fisher]

Thomas (#100), thank you for that potted history of the Palestinian conflict. These are trying times for many of us, not least the victims. If history was all about facts and good faith then I think we'd soon find a solution to the conflict. Unfortunately this isn't so as we witness a lot of name-calling, mud-slinging, propaganda, deceit and downright lies. Many of the questions you raise have no clear answers because observers like us have no insight into the minds of any of the actors. Many minds better than ours have tried and failed to solve the conflict and I shan't dwell long on a lengthy discussion. However, I wish to mention one facet of the debate.

Over the years I have watched close to a hundred WWII documentaries, especially World at War and those on PBS America. So, when parallels are drawn between Nazism and the Palestinian conflict I pay particular attention. Three reasonable comparisons that come to mind immediately are these:

1. Is Hamas a terrorist organisation? Many have made up their minds. Like the IRA, and as pointed out by the man at the UN, they didn't arise in a vacuum. What gave birth to them and what are they fighting for? Do they just like violence or are they trying to correct an injustice? If the former then they are terrorists. If the latter then they are freedom fighters. In the case of Hamas I am more inclined to see them as partisans, a type of people's army. A lightly armed resistance movement facing overwhelming odds and enemy firepower. This is not 'whataboutery' and I am not excusing violence. If we are objective, we will see that the history of violence against civilians is a long one. History does not repeat itself but events have an uncanny ability of mimicing previous ones that we have learnt nothing from.

2. Does the Gaza Strip remind me of the Warsaw Ghetto? Yes. The world's biggest open prison. The only difference that I see is that one short side of this 4-sided prison adjoins a third country, Egypt. Otherwise there is no escape. All I hear is how inhumane the Egyptians are in not letting Palestinians escape into Egypt. Israel could of course let them escape into Palestine; oops, I meant Israel. Some Gazans even claim that they can see their former villages now on the other side of the fence built by Israel. Alternatively, Israel could lift the blockade of the Mediterranean coast and let the Palestinians escape by sea. I see a paradox there in connection with the British blockade of the same coast to prevent the entry of Jewish refugees fleeing Europe after WWII.

3. Does the current Israeli policy of land-grab and settlement of Palestinian land remind you of the Nazi Lebensraum policy? Yes. The justification for both policies was that more land was needed for better protection. And if this meant displacing the present occupiers then so be it.

I find nauseating the scenes of Western politicians rushing over to Israel to glad-hand Netanyahu, a corrupt politician. As a propaganda contest, Israel is currently on top. But for how long? I suspect that like me, you are of an age to have witnessed events from as far back as the '60s. I was a supporter of Israel's cause especially as viewed through the Kibbutz lens. Young people living in harmony, making the desert bloom. Former victims who would teach us a lesson in humility and humanity. But my opinion gradually changed shortly after the Sabra and Shatila massacre.

In the meantime, Israeli demographic opinion started to shift rightwards with the arrival of Eastern European Jewry following the fall of the Berlin wall and the easing of emigration policies in the former Warsaw bloc countries. In between all that and following Arafat's death I had no doubt in my mind about the Palestinian cause. After Arafat's house arrest and prior to his death we were told that Arafat was a dinosaur. An unreasonable, conceited head of a terrorist organisation called the PLO who was blocking the peace process. All would be well once he died because the Palestinians would come to their senses and 'make' the correct choice in the forthcoming democratic elections. Much to Western consternation, the people of Gaza elected Hamas. Some parallels here with the IRA/Sinn Fein relationship in Northern Ireland. In the case of Northern Ireland, the ballot box route has borne fruit. That is thanks to Britain, the Republic of Ireland, the EU and the US who all leant heavily on both sides of the sectarian divide. Unfortunately for the Palestinians the West, especially the US, have not been honest brokers in this conflict. Nothing depresses me more than the dog whistle utterances of populist politicians in support of Israel. They imagine they are saying what their publics are thinking. I sense that public opinion is shifting in the direction of the Palestinians, especially among the well educated younger generation. They are more liberal in outlook and largely free of the sense of guilt about what happened to the Jews in WWII.