From the Sublime to the Ridiculous

[j.sabourn]

A lot of the posts on here are about safety and being safety conscience at all times.
When most of us on here went to sea a dead seaman here or there barely got a mention it was only with the advent of monetary claims that everyone got serious.
It was usual to see some seamen join ships with suitcases and sea bags to carry all their self protective gear supplied by themselves if that way inclined, and for others to join with a brown paper parcel under their arm containing a spare T shirt ,underpants if worn, and a spare set of dungarees, these were usually engine room greasers and firemen. This was for an expected trip of at least 6 months. The shipowner in those days supplied nothing. Anything the likes of working boots were unheard of. So for personal protective clothing to suddenly appear on the scene was totally unexpected. There again to whose benefit was this early response to safety aimed at. It saved the shipowner much money in excess weight on air plane flights, saved him damages levelled at him for harm done to his employees. And for the small outlay money wise gave him a clear conscience. Today in every walk of seagoing life you see expressions by individual people and companies about how safety conscience they are. A sudden change of heart? Or just good business sense. At the Piper Alpha tragedy the crews of safety vessels , had no survival suits, no gas detectors, no fresh water for cleaning of survivors , no hands free communication radios, in fact the list of no haves , was more or less total as against the did haves. This was also long after work gear was supplied to crews on regular merchant ships. So when ever safety comes up I just think back and say it was the usual sublime to the ridiculous. Have seen people sacked for not wearing safety shoes or stupid heavy weight boiler suits in the tropics. What must our predessors have thought. It’s no good saying we learn by our mistakes. Ordinary common sense should have been there years before it was. That is if the employers of seafarers had any regard for their employees. JS

[happy daze john in oz]

Thankfully John things have changed big time now.
OHS has become the watch word in so many industries, good you may say but it is not for the benefit of the worker.
All this is in place to ensure the company who ever it is will not be sue vin the event of an accident.
They will now claim, as I have seen it occur, that safety gear and safe working conditions have been established by the company but if the worker chooses to ignore some then he, not the company, will be responsible.

[robpage]

The reason that companies provide PPE is as said by John strange if you have given somebody goggles for operating the grinder and they get grit in their eye because you have issued PPE they are regarded as being partly responsible for their responsibility and when it comes to a claim they will get a reduced claim and this is the problem the amount of claims you get . If you are seriously injured at work and have complied with all the PPE and health and safety requirements you are looking at around 1 million pounds even small claims you are looking at for a £5,000 settlement in this day and age the lawyers will take 20% to 30% of your claim as their fee . The compliance with health and safety is there for forced on companies via the insurer

Is saying that I have been a great proponent of the health and safety rules and I have never known any case where the rules of been strictly applied to that anyone has ever died yet I have met several cases where people have not complied with the rules and deaths has resulted a lot of these in construction with wall and trenches collapsing and lots of things falling from Great Heights

When health and safety rules and regulations are applied by people who understand the job you get very little difficulty one of my hardest ones to get people to comply with the permit to work and then get it signed off by a production supervisor who all seem to be adverse to signing they'd accept the plant back

The big problem arises where you have fresh 21 year old university graduates who have specialised in health and safety and have the the certification and start dictating how people with experience of the job should do it this leads to stupidity and the total rejection of anything else in safety unfortunately the lack of experience cannot be replaced by paperwork

[Keith Tindell]

As a watch manager in the Fire service, i would ask the H@S guy, how he would suggest i train fireman safely, eg, one of the best means of training the guys used to be in a dissued factory building, where we could smoke it up, and commit men in breathing apparatus, then we were being told the building had to be inspected for any hazards, ie glass, condition of the floors and windows etc. this made no sense to me, as the whole purpose was to teach how to avoid exactly that in a fire situation. so how do you teach men to do a dangerous job, and comply with H@S ???, kt

[Lewis McColl]

Who all remembers doing there MN firefighting certs, You had a chat ,shown how the BA worked, How to operate the hose and nozzles, get the fire mans suit on. Then they set this big tank /ships mock up block on fire and tossed you in. That is when you realised why it is called fire fighting. You were told when your ears start burning get fu-kout lol.


#3 completely agree Rob some kid waves his degree and he is suddenly an expert. My lad has a mate who is one of these so called experts. I remember he was at ours one time and was giving it large about how things should be done. He was leaving the house and he found he had a puncture. We lived on a hill. So he jacks the car and obviously he did not have the hand brake on hard enough, it started to roll forward. I says to him here stick a brick in the space at rear wheel also put the thing in gear, looks at me as if I am daft. perhaps common sense was not part of his course work.

[Ken Norton]

Remember doing the two day and four day marine fire fighting courses in Leith at Mac Donald road. Not much H&S in those days. Left the course on completion to fly to Gothenbourg to join a new build, had water blister ear rings on both ears and radiated burns on the face where the Siebe face mask buckles had been, had comments from the airline crew. Twenty four hours after arriving I had severe tonsilitis sent to the Doc. by the "Old Man", didn't knock me off though as the Dr. instructions, had to do all the flimsies, took about two weeks to get over it lol. The fire chief said "this is the nearest training" you will get to the real thing! He definitely was not kidding.

[Tony Taylor]

A lot of the posts on here are about safety and being safety conscience at all times.
That is if the employers of seafarers had any regard for their employees. JS

You must have sailed with the same engine room storekeeper as me; he joined with what he stood up in, levi jacket and jeans, white t shirt and baseball boots.
Turned to in the t shirt and jeans with baseball boots minus laces. He washed all the gear every night and spent the evening in a towel.
Went ashore in same gear (always clean) with laces in boots. Apparently it was difficult to keep laces clean so he took em out when working. He came from Blyth but spent his leave in Union Jack club or similar.

[Keith Tindell]

I don't know if anyone has attended the Fire Colledge Moreton in Marsh Glocestershire, as Fire officers we all had to attend courses there, civilian couses as well. the facilities there are fantastic, eg a full size concrete ship and dock, 3 decks with emergency escape exits at all levels, they would stack timber up in huge baskets where the engines would have been, and then BA crews were sent for top deck level, down to fight the fire, dragging hoses with them, that was as tough as the real thing. I can remember one guy coming out with his torch on a lanyard on his belt, and the torch completely melted, happy days, and much beer quaffed in the evenings, kt

[Tony Taylor]

I don't know if anyone has attended the Fire Colledge Moreton in Marsh Glocestershire, as Fire officers we all had to attend courses there, civilian couses as well. the facilities there are fantastic, eg a full size concrete ship and dock, 3 decks with emergency escape exits at all levels, they would stack timber up in huge baskets where the engines would have been, and then BA crews were sent for top deck level, down to fight the fire, dragging hoses with them, that was as tough as the real thing. I can remember one guy coming out with his torch on a lanyard on his belt, and the torch completely melted, happy days, and much beer quaffed in the evenings, kt

In late seventies I got married and moved into a new house, one of my neighbours was a firefighter with Tyne & Wear and at that time I had more time on BA than him. He also told me that ship fires were their worst fear (Tyne was still pretty busy then), after about two years he got a job at Moreton in Marsh and moved away, never seen him since.

[John Arton]

The introduction of STCW and then ISM has reduced seafaring to the lowest common denominator. In ISM check lists covering every conceivable task on board have been introduced taking away the need for common sense. Follow the check list and nothing will ever go wrong****yeah well who wrote the bleddy check list in the first place? usually someone who only read a manual and who had little or no practical experience.
In ISM there are some 75+ scenarios that you have to train for. This requires making up a drill covering, for instance a escape of toxic material, how it occurred, action to be taken, equipment required, staff to tackle the incident, p.p.e required and how it to be used, non involved staff duties, etc.etc. all aspects of the drill require a check list and after completing the drill a debrief with further notes to be recorded. Now this was on ships where all onboard were company employees under long term contracts and who returned to the same ship on a regular basis.
Rgds
J.A.