syria

[Roger Dyer]

Wow Roger this is a superb understatement "British Government was sometimes guilty of harsh and unwise treatment of the civilian population" was it a war or a classic bringing a disagreeable sector of the population to heel? On saying that what occurred in Northern Ireland as to the Catholics was a disgrace only in the Balkans (I think?) do generations remember so far back & seek revenge. Religion again.

Richard, having re-read my comment I think you're probably right, so I shall happily withdraw the word 'sometimes'.

As I feel sure you know, at the time of the ill-fated 'Easter Rising' in 1916 public support for the rebel cause in Ireland was low, however, during the months that followed, an insensitive and foolish reaction by British Authorities, which included the execution of several rebel leaders, saw public opinion become decidedly anti-British. The insurrection that broke out in 1919 (known by some as the Anglo-Irish War or War of Independence 1919-1921) saw acts of brutality carried out by all concerned. On the one hand, the Seperatists led by the I.R.A. and on the other the British Military and other auxiliary units including the infamous 'Black and Tans' (many of whom allegedly benefitted from a recruitment drive at Glasgow's 'Barlinnie Gaol').

As tragic as this was (and I include the long years of strife that were to follow in N.Ireland) I don't see how one can draw similar comparison between the folly of British Governmental policy in Ireland at that time and the heinous acts of democide in Syria that are still being carried out at the behest of B.al-Assad........unless, of course, one ascribes to the view that the mass-slaughter referred to is just another media beat-up.

For what it's worth, Richard, I share you're despair at the never-ending chronology of grief and murder man has inflicted upon his fellow-man for religious purpose......makes a lot of sense doesn't it ?

.....Roger

[gray_marian]

#32, The British Troops were in Northern Ireland Richard due to civil war, there were atrocities on All sides before and after. Reference here is the recent "troubles" [1969 onwards]

And yes, 'do generations remember so far back & seek revenge. Religion again.' Unfortunately Richard provincial minds have to be eliminated to move on. The trouble being forgive and forget is not an option to fanatics in any culture. The only way to eradicate to my mind is having non denominational schooling in the hope that future generations unlike their forefathers can acknowledge the past let it go and move on.

[gray_marian]

33, ' 'Black and Tans' (many of whom allegedly benefitted from a recruitment drive at Glasgow's 'Barlinnie Gaol').'

Roger, Ahh sure now you can always rely on the Scots in times of war, always in the thick of it!
Here are a few enlightened views from as recent as 2011. A review of the book by Eunan O'Halpin in The Irish Times says it will "open many eyes." Major surprises were that many of the Black and Tans were actually Irish-born. An analysis of Black and Tan recruitment disposes of the widely altered charge that these temporary policemen were the sweepings of the British penal system. Rather, they were a miscellany of British and Irish ex-servicemen, almost none of whom had criminal records. Whilst the Black and Tans were confined to service alongside regular RIC men, waiting for the IRA to attack, the [British police and] Auxiliaries were intended as an elite force tasked to take the battle to the IRA. They did with a vengeance and it is abundantly clear that they abused that power, but even more than the Black and Tans. In another book about the era, "1920-1922 The Outrages" by Pearse Lawlor, published by Mercier Press, it is clear that the worst of all groups, including the Black and Tans, were the Ulster Special Constabulary. Like all wars nobody comes out smelling of roses

[Dennis McGuckin]

Hard to forgive and forget when your father or son is dragged into the street and shot by the Black and Tans.
In my experience as a school boy, the priests did a good job of keeping the hatred alive.

[Des Taff Jenkins]

HI Marian.
I read a book a couple of years ago written by a former SAS soldier, can't remember the name of the book. In it he described what they used to do in the Belfast, their senior officers told them to drive down the road and kill a few people, this they did, made on difference it they were Catholic or Protestant, it kept the war going. He also described how they would catch people coming over the border take them to where a long pit had been dug in the forest; shoot them in the head then cover the bodies with a front end loader, if my memory serves me I think M Thatcher tried to prevent the publication.
Cheers Des

[gray_marian]

#37, Crikey Des, please try and remember the name of that book. I lived in Southern Ireland from the mid 1980's to 1991 crossed the border numerous times in any one year, when I look back now, don't know what I was thinking. Worse though, in the 1970's so l've been told! Was never allowed a loo stop within 10 mile radius of the border had to wait till the ferry in Larne Have a few stories! pm only as all still living...

[j.sabourn]

#25... Certain people jump in with both feet when they assume I am a staunch ally of Russia. The post was made to try and consider what other countries viz. those who are invaded by foreign powers and what their reaction will be to those who are patriotic to their own beliefs. I say own beliefs as they can all think for themselves. The western world obviously thinks and acts and lives and goes to the toilet and prays has a different sense of values and dozens of other differences. Yet some in the western world think that by showing what they consider kindness it will be reciprocated. Different cultures living side by side and using the same latrines has a long way to go yet, this is to both sides or all the other sides to the argument. At the present moment in time you have two of the leading countries in the Middle East on the brink of outright war, these out breaks will persist for years to come as they have for the milleniums of the past. Now for the patronage of our governments we will be having some of these feuds fought on our own soil for years to come. One of these Middle East families was on the news out here yesterday saying 11 of their members had been refused permission and had their visas cancelled for visiting other family members in California. Shades of what the British government was going to ban a prospective member the US presidency campaign not so long ago. The head of the Australian middle east family was indignant that they could not refuse them permission on the credence of their religion. Someone should tell him the facts of life. Any country can refuse admission to what they consider a threat, whether true or not. You enter a country as a guest only if you are invited to. The same as a Landlord of a pub can refuse admission ( unless of course the EU has changed this ruling). Cheers JS

[happy daze john in oz]

Den #36 and Marian, being married to a fantastic lady from the Irish republic who had afather who mwas a guard, Irish Police, I have heard some horrific stories and yes the church had a lot to answer for.
A year after my wife was married we were in Tipperary at her parents home, she is a left footer and me a Church of anywhere though baptized as C of E. Being the good man I am I went to the Catholic church on Sunday with her. This Sunday there were men on the door. When all the parishoners were in the doors were locked with the men standing guard. The sermon delivered by the priest was to say the least frightening. The troubles had begun the year or so prior and he castigated the British gov for sending troops into the North.
It was such sermons that I think kept the troubles alive, the north had no wish to join the south but men such as him did. The odd thing in all of this is that the greater majority of those in the south are quite happy with the way things are, many say the British land owners since the time of Henry 8th had done them no favours.
So yes, religion used as a weapon is the worst kind of weapon there is. Fanatical priests, ministers, imams or any other leaders can destroy any country just by using the local religion to gain heir own ends.

[j.sabourn]

John I was a choir boy in a very High Church of England. Never have giving too much thought to Religion by some against the parish priest passed down the ages the same as some of the other cults. The only Minister of the faith I ever met who I liked was the one who married us in a Presb. Church. was never in before the ceremony and he drew a plan of Church so I knew where to stand etc. on the one and only talk he gave us as had to get married quick or wait another 6 months as was due back at work. Was the advice he said he gave to all was that marriage was 98 percent sex, in which case I didn't get my fair share as was away most of the time. He had also been a POW in the same place as Lou. There was one other who I had a liking for was a Pakistani minister out here who came round one day, he was in the games room outside next to the pool, my neighbour just before he arrived had thrown a blow up doll into my pool which I duly rescued and threw behind the settee in the games room. The minister sat in the chair saw the blow up doll and never said a word about it, could see he just didn't know what to say. It is just another job. The only thing I can remember from my choir days singing was I believe in the Holy Ghost, The Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, and the resurrection of the body. AAAAmen. PS for those heathens who don't know Amen means So Be It. Cheers JS

[John Pruden]

thank god I'm an atheist?? jp