The Untouchable

[Keith Tindell]

This was the same in 1958, 3 months seamans training, and then go to sea as a peggy for 9mths, was nice just to move up to JOS, SOS, then EDH, and then AB, you were really great when you made AB,, KT

[Red Lead Ted]

Two birds with one stone, I was talking to an ex welsh navy member regarding this very point only a few weeks ago, When i left Gravesend sea school i had a stamp in my book with 2 boxes to be ticked by a pool superintendent or ships captain. One box was ticked when i had 18 months sea time in, That made me an E.D.H. The other was ticked when i had the sea time in 7 yrs as Brian say,s and was given a boat ticket after doing a fire fighting course. We to Brian had a hatch with two sampson posts in the court yard With both wooden hatch boards and MacGregor lids to work on. We had a ships davit with a clinker built lifeboat that we would lower onto the thames and learn how to coxwain a lifeboat from cast off bowman to hook on bowman. You would then be given a test on the river practicle, And a test in the classroom tacking,boat contents, rations,were to find things etc... you had to gain 2 {A,s} in both to get pass your boat ticket. I to could have sailed my first trip as an A.B. But as you say the B.O.T. Didn,t see it like that you had to go through the rank,s from deck boy to A.B.There are lots of lads who done the same on this site and will confirm it now as we all know the books were changed in 1972 unfortunately i lost mine in a house fire so we could be talking after 1972 that the 2 boxes appeared it may not in my earlier one. As far as Blue Flu Bill i was assured by this ex welsh navy seaman that ,that was also the case with them you were trained to E.D.H. Standard and after 18 months automatically were made E.D.H. I no there was a boat school in Lpool but i never attended to obtain my boat ticket for the reasons explained. You were taken into a room at Mann island pool given a refresher course and that was that. And just to add i done 12 hour,s at the wheel no giro compass on an old Haines tree boat to obtain my steering ticket even though i had passed with flying colours at gravesend. Getting back to the lad who obtained an A.B.s ticket from gravesend sea school {Impossible} For one thing they could never have known if you would have lived for the next 7 yrs. Let alone stayed in the M.N. Bill you no more about blue flu than i ever will i can only relate what i was told by an ex Blue Funnel man. I was never a peggy aboard any ship i was deck boy to A.B.On deck constantly. I was informed young lads comming out of Alfred,s sea school done a week about peggy one week on watch the next that would never have been my cup of tea i went to sea to carry on a long yearning family tradition and to get to see the world working on deck not serving up tab nabs and get a bunk i didn,t have to share with my brother. I never cut the deck to draw a watch until i was E.D.H. Ordinary Seaman were on day work on all the ships i sailed in we can only post on lifes experiences they were mine. Regards to you both Terry.

[happy daze john in oz]

I was in Shrewsbury (the big City) this afternoon and looked in a shop 'Cotswolds' which deals in outdoor clothing and such. Horrified to see flip-flops on sale for £18.00.
After close inspection to see what commanded such a price I could find nothing, absolutely nothing. Sales assistant advised that they were ' xxxxxx ' brand!
I think you can buy them in M&S for less than half that.

Bill

I jaut paid $5 for a pair here in Oz. Last year same ones were only $3.50. Bloody rip off if you ask me.

[Captain Kong]

Hi Terry,
They must have changed the Rules after I started in March 1952, I took my EDH and Life Boat in Liverpool in March 1954, a two week course, and by then having done a long trip as SOS , I was 18 years and nine months old. If I had not have gone to do it, I would have had to ship out as SOS again. and we didnt get any Pool money.
My younger brother did two years at the Indefatigable on Anglesey, he shipped out as Deck boy, then Jos, Sos, before he could take his EDH and Lifeboat Exams at the age of 18 in Liverpool.
On the Vindicatrix I was BOSUN of the ship, in charge of 100 lads, It is stamped in my old discharge book, made no difference, I was still a deck boy and sailed as Peggy on a London Greek,
There were no boxes to tick in my old discharge book to say you were qualified as an EDH or Lifeboatman.
.
In 1992 they really did a two week course and came out with an ABs Certificate.
I enquired after the incident with that person. It was also in his discharge book. I sacked him on arrival in London, I wanted ABLE SEAMEN, not novices. The job was too dangerous to have inexperienced men on deck.

Cheers
Brian.

[john sutton]

I was a peggy,s peggy.Cant get lower down the totem pole than that
john sutton

[Keith Tindell]

Hi John, I also was peggies peggy, but the very next trip made JOS after 9 months of peggy hurrah. We did do the odd week on deck. Must admit my little heart used to sink when joining a ship and told i was peggy. Likewise, count the months of JOS, before asking for SOS etc. I did sail with guys who were UDH (ucertificated) i believe?, dont know how they escaped the normal route we all had to take. But was nice to reach AB and be regarded as one of the senior members of the deck crew. But i would do it all again, regards KT

[Ivan Cloherty]

. But was nice to reach AB and be regarded as one of the senior members of the deck crew. But i would do it all again, regards KT

Keith doing things the hard route makes it all worthwhile with a sense of achievment (no matter what the job is) and believe me when you were a mate a good AB was worth their weight in gold and was appreciated. Thank god they came up the ladder one step at a time, so that they could teach those that followed the tricks of the trade and I sailed with so many who were willing to pass on their skills. Without those AB's willing to pass on their skills to the youngsters (including cadets) the ships would not have run well and we would have learned nothing except how to chip and paint. Having been ashore for so many years now and read so many of the foregoing threads on present day AB's experience (or lack of it) what skills do they have to pass on to others, very little it would seem.

The joy of being a youngster at sea was watching the old hands, rigging stages, bosuns chairs, splicing ropes and wires of all dimensions, making bell ropes, knot boards etc etc and "wishing I could do that" and then later on achieving it thanks to the willingness of shipmates passing on their experience even to us cadets for which I am eternally grateful.

[Red Lead Ted]

Hi Terry,
They must have changed the Rules after I started in March 1952, I took my EDH and Life Boat in Liverpool in March 1954, a two week course, and by then having done a long trip as SOS , I was 18 years and nine months old. If I had not have gone to do it, I would have had to ship out as SOS again. and we didnt get any Pool money.
My younger brother did two years at the Indefatigable on Anglesey, he shipped out as Deck boy, then Jos, Sos, before he could take his EDH and Lifeboat Exams at the age of 18 in Liverpool.
On the Vindicatrix I was BOSUN of the ship, in charge of 100 lads, It is stamped in my old discharge book, made no difference, I was still a deck boy and sailed as Peggy on a London Greek,
There were no boxes to tick in my old discharge book to say you were qualified as an EDH or Lifeboatman.
.
In 1992 they really did a two week course and came out with an ABs Certificate.
I enquired after the incident with that person. It was also in his discharge book. I sacked him on arrival in London, I wanted ABLE SEAMEN, not novices. The job was too dangerous to have inexperienced men on deck.

Cheers
Brian.

I find it very hard to believe that any lad in 1992 would have obtained an A.Bs Ticket after 2 weeks. More a case of buying it on ebay, Or maybe had a family member who was an A.B. And tried to bluff it which as you say is impossible. I can assure you i started as deck boy and finished A.B. But there were no SOS stamped in my books have thought about this if my memory serves me right i was called up to the bridge one day a few months into the trip the skipper explained i would be upgraded from JOS TO SOS wages but as it was a 12month trip which was expected i would be discharged as EDH Which i was. That was in 1971/72. i already had three trips under my belt so maybe that had a bearing i wish i could scan and show you the discharge in my book but unfortunately because i lost them in a fire i cant. I have no reason to tell you a porky m8 thats how it was. There must be someone on this site or i will obtain the same book as mine and scan it of one of my many ex seaman friends who also had there book franked with EDH@BOAT in a box on the first page of the dicharge book. I am a man on a mission, By the way when you signed on that 2 week old A.B. WERE YOU TIED UP ON A HILL Still not having that m8 sorry. Regards Terry.

[Keith Tindell]

Hi RLT,
I dont think anyone was accusing you of telling porkies, i think its a statement of how things used to be in earlier times. I should think if we had members from sailing ship days, they would put us all to shame on how tough they had it. I`m sure the system changed considerably in your time, its just us old gits on our nostalgia run. No offence meant in any way. Regards KT

[Captain Kong]

Hi Terry,
Things had obviously changed by the time you went to sea. `Nearly` twenty years after me.
.
I have a copy of the National Maritime Board Year book dated 1958 for the year 1957. regarding wages and seniority of deck boy, Junior Ordinary Seaman and Senior Ordinary Seaman and the EDH when qualified.
.

Quote ....
Note A:- Able Seamen, Efficient Deck Hands.....
In the case of Articles opened on or after 1st May 1953, a Seafarer shall not be entitled to the Rate of Pay applicable to these Ratings unless he has the appropriate Qualifications laid down in Ministry of Transport Notice M380.
.
Note D:- Ordinary Seaman.. A seafarer engaged on articles on or after 1st of May 1953 as Junior Ordinary Seaman or Senior Ordinary Seaman shall qualify for the Rating only if he has the following qualifications:-....
Junior Ordinary Seaman :- Not less than sixteen and a half years of age and not less than 9 months sea service on .
deck. and at least one voyage as Deck Boy must have been completed.
.
Senior Ordinary Seamen :- ..Not less than seventeen and a half years of age and not less than Eighteen months sea service on deck.
.
When a Seaman has reached the age of 18 Years with the appropriate Sea time he can then sit for the exmination of Lifeboatman and Efficient Deck Hand.

The same also applied to Engine Room Boys, Junior Ordinary Engine Room Ratings, Senior Ordinary Engine Room Ratings and Engine Room Hands.
.
Overtime rates...Boys 1s 9d per hour.
Ordinary Seamen 2s 9d per hour
ABs and EDH 3s 9d per hour.
.
Rates of pay:- EDH 1st year £27 10s per month. increasing by £1 per year to...
Able Seamens Rate of £31 10s per month
NOTE:- Any Able Seaman who holds the Certificate, [not Eficient Deck Hand ] will recieve 10s a month extra from
22nd July 1957.
.
Terry, I hope this goes some way of explaining the conditions in those days. Things change all the time.
As you say you did not believe that a lad gets an ABs Certificate after a two week course at Gravesend in 1992 is that not a progression of the way things were going when you say you took your Lifeboat and EDH exam at Gravesend.
When years before all that would have been impossible.
As I said I had the lads Discharge book and I enquired of the Sea School and that is what they were turning out.
What they do today, I have no idea.
Cheers
Brian.