WW2 Naval Wrecks vanish from Java Sea

[Chris Allman]

Chris is hard to imagine they have been physically removed. There is plenty of shipping in that area shown on the map. Both offshore ships and trading vessels plus Indonesian fishing vessels, I spent plenty time in the Java sea and surrounds and unless it was Superman cant imagine any large salvage work being carried out undetected. Plus the large amount of the earths surface today being observed by satellites any work on the surface would stick up like a sore thumb. JS

John,

I quote official British sources :-

"Crews posing as fishermen and using long rubber hoses to stay underwater for hours have scavenged the waters around Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia, locating the wrecks and stealing parts, including steel, aluminium and brass. “It’s like a cottage industry, apart from the fact the illicit salvage boats are dealing with substantial wrecks. Basically they use explosives and grabs to rip things apart. You get basis steel. In a single engine room you have a lot of non-ferrous metals, copper and brass, which have a premium on the scrap metal market.”

"Last year the Malaysian navy spotted a vessel near the site of second world war shipwrecks and arrested 17 Vietnamese crewmen. Several other men were underwater removing parts. In a separate incident, a Vietnamese crew was caught with iron cutters and a crane. "

Andy Brockman, archaeologist and researcher in maritime crime.

So they have been removing stuff over a long period of time and its only just been realised just what's gone and how extensive the looting has been.

Further information HERE


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[Keith at Tregenna]

MoD threatens action after WW2 war graves looted in Indonesian waters

Thousands died in the battle but the wrecks of HMS Exeter and HMS Encounter are said to have been almost totally removed.

MoD threatens action after WW2 war graves looted in Indonesian waters

[j.sabourn]

#11... Chris thanks for #11. We used to do the same when working on a diving ship. Most of our practice dives were done on old German U-Boats and the divers used to take what they called trophies, the best one to get was the conning tower hatch, other metals such as phosphorous bronze objects were saleable and were probably used as a source of revenue for the P.O.s bar. I read the posts on here as the whole hulls being missing without trace, which would be a huge endeavour. The Hollande 1 submarine which we located off the Eddystone was recovered intact off the bottom about 1980, although only a small vessel I believe it was a big job for recovery vessels. She is or was in the museum at Gosport now. And is a good example between submarines of then (1913) and now 2016 size wise. As in a previous post when recovering a Sea King helicopter in the channel about 1980 one had to bring it to the surface and then slowly inch by inch raise it draining it of water all the time the limit alarms on the 20 ton crane were going off all the time and as I was driving the crane at the time, gave me the runs so to speak. Whoever if it is proved have stolen these capital ships totally without anyone being aware of, have achieved the one of the biggest fetes ever at sea. Cheers JS PS The dives we did on the U-Boats these were not designated war graves, but submarines which the Germans scuttled at the end of the war. JS

[j.sabourn]

Close to where I lived in the UK a greek ship went aground to the North of the North Tyne pier ship called the Zephros up until a few year ago she was still there after going aground in 1947. She slowly disappeared probably by people taking what they wanted and the sea and weather taking the rest, Until only the keel pates remained. The last time I was over even those had disappeared. So for 50 years there was at least evidence of her being there. However she was on the surface and reachable by every Tom Dick and Harry. The fairly recent disappearance of the Malaysian aircraft without any real trace of her where abouts I was surprised about as the technology today is in a lot of cases still closely guarded. So the theory of actually sinking into the Ocean floor is feasible to my thinking. The oceans of the world have really not been surveyed yet and they are now sending feelers out to Mars. Like putting the horse before the cart. Science all depends on how much money you want to throw at it. JS

[Gulliver]

Thanks for your mention of the ZEPHYROS,John.
As you know I always like to seize on peoples' memories of shipping incidents and casualties and expand the stories for any of us who don't know ,or have forgotten about them.

ZEPHYROS was a 4796 gross tons cargo steamer owned by A.Lusi of Argostoli Greece.The ship was built in 1909 by C.Connell & Co. Ltd.,Glasgow as DUNEDIN for Henderson & McIntosh ,Leith.Sold 1919 to Nautilus Shipping( F.W. Ritson), Sunderland renamed CHERRY BRANCH.1931 sold to A.Lusi, Argostoli renamed ZEPHYROS.1938 owners restyled Zephyros S.S. Co Ltd.

Wrecked 26 Feb. 1947 ,off Brown Point,North of Cullercoats wireless station,Tyne Roads, whilst inward bound from Rouen to the Tyne in ballast
The wreck lay stranded for several years, slowly disintegrating. Eventually she was broken-up by several scrap merchants.



FLICKR ITEM -ZEPHYROS

[j.sabourn]

The story that went around was that the master took a flashing light, a belisha beacon, they had just been installed at the time at zebra crossings, for the North Pier light. I was 11 at the time and believed whatever I was told. almost 80 and still get caught out as believe most of what I hear and shouldn't. I must have been easy meat for some of these shipowners when sent abroad to join some exquisite ship which turned out to be some old wreck which had ,had about 5 change of names in her past. That was a bad winter in 47, at least it was on the NE coast. Even Cappy had to try and find foot ware. Sorry it must have been the South Pier light as he finished up in Cullercoats. It could have even been cappy with the old lantern he went around with waving and beckoning the ships in to their fate, into the arms of Mary. If you want to look up some old tonnage Look up the Tamito which I believe started her life as a Whale catcher, The Ondur,Deventel,Famita, Penomi, got another 78 better ones. Cheers JS

[Ivan Cloherty]

#11... whoever if it is proved have stolen these capital ships totally without anyone being aware of, have achieved the one of the biggest fetes ever at sea. Cheers JS PS

John having been involved with the design and construction of salvage grabs for more than two decades I totally agree with you, steel on these Capital ships can be 3 to 4 inches thick, breaking that into pieces easy enough to handle by divers whether fully equipped or skin divers with explosives would cause one hell of a bang and damage vessels floating in the vicinity, breaking up a capital ship underwater is an exacting meticulously planned job and to lift pieces of 20 tonnes you will need a 4 -5 cubm grab (cactus or spider) with an unladen weight of 8 - 15 tonnes and a 250 tonne lifting crane which when rigged for grabbing duties will lift approx 30/35 tonnes (if you're lucky). One things for sure you would be noticed on site

[John Arton]

Here is an update of those disappearing British and Dutch warships from WW2 off Indonesia.
Three Countries Unite To Solve Nautical Mystery – gCaptain
rgds
JA

[Captain Kong]

A few years ago the Japanese tried to scrap the HMSs Prince of Wales and Repulse off the coast of Malaya that they sank.

from Wikipedia..........................

The ships today[edit]

The wrecks of the two ships were found after the war, Repulse in 183 feet (56 m) of water, and Prince of Wales in 223 feet (68 m). Both are in a nearly upside-down position. Buoys were attached to the propeller shafts, and flags of the Royal Navy are attached to the lines and are regularly changed by divers. These Royal Navy wrecks are Crown property. Prince of Wales' bell was removed from the wreck in 2002 by an authorised team of Royal Navy and British civilian divers in response to fears it would be stolen by unauthorised divers. The bell is now on display at the Merseyside Maritime Museum in Liverpool. It is currently traditional for every passing Royal Navy ship to perform a remembrance service over the site of the wrecks.[58]

In May 2007, Expedition 'Job 74', a dedicated survey of the exterior hull of both Prince of Wales and Repulse, was conducted. The expedition's findings sparked considerable interest among naval architects and marine engineers around the world; as they detailed the exact nature of the damage to Prince of Wales and the exact location and number of torpedo hits for the first time. Consequently, the findings contained in the initial expedition report and later supplementary reports were analysed by the SNAME (Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers) Marine Forensics Committee and a resultant paper was drawn up entitled "Death of a Battleship: A Reanalysis of the Tragic Loss of HMS Prince of Wales". This paper was subsequently presented at a meeting of RINA (Royal Institution of Naval Architects) and IMarEST (Institute of Marine Engineering, Science & Technology) members in London by Mr. William Garzke.

In October 2014, the Daily Telegraph reported that both Prince of Wales and Repulse were being "extensively damaged" with explosives by scrap-metal dealers.[59]