Has the profession gone mad?

[robpage]

I don't see anything to complicated about making a sextant , he biggest problem would be finding the materials to make it from . As for a compass , do lifeboats still have them ?

I never have taken a fancy to cruising , i just think 17 decks of ship drawing so little water , with so many people on board is a recipe that I do not want to follow .

I also believe , as I have said before , underpaid crews , working for excessive hours is something that we campaigned against thirty years ago , and I cannot do anything that supports Carnival Cruises , with their policy of paying miniscule amounts to the catering staff , and charging passengers tips , to pass on , ( If they do get passed on )

No Thanks to cruise ships , I would rather go to a hotel , and I don't have to pay the staff it is included in the charges , not called tips !!!

[jimmys]

Hi John Cassels,

My mother Mary Garvin Dunbar was an instrument maker. She was fully time served and qualified pre WW2. She was apprenticed to Dent & Johnson at Dents Corner in Linwood. They were a premier navigational instrument maker. She could make a sextant at eighty years old never mind in her prime. Her company probably made the instruments you used as a young man. She later retrained in education.
She worked in the navigation for the V bombers in the late forties fifties.
In my prime I was in a different league from her. I could still make a sextant and a Gyro compass as well if asked all from raw materials.

regards
jimmy

[Gulliver]

Heh Heh !Roger! I was in Winding Up Mode.I didn't get to be a dinosaur so that I could keep my mouth shut!

Well John,I'm a firm believer that all passengers should be SEVERAL HUNDRED FEET below the Bridge.They are just being selfish-they have plenty of observation decks to use,without being ABOVE the Bridge and in any case ..we don't want them witnessing what we do ,keep them in the dark,keep it a mystery,and keep them in awe of us!
I'm damn sure they wouldn't let them near the Engine Room,in fact I wouldn't be surprised these days if they had a glass floored observation deck above the Engine Room so they could look down.You wouldn't see any engineers about though ,except an immaculate white boiler-suited Chief Engineer with four purple and gold rings emblazoned on his epaulettes.Come to think of it,he could quite easily be a cardboard cut-out........Engine Rooms are unmanned,remember.

Actually,about enclosed Bridges....this may surprise you but in 72(that's 1972),I had the novel,but dubious pleasure of sailing in the container ship Dart America.
In an era when innovations in shipbuilding design were coming thick and fast,that ship,until her sisters arrived,had the longest enclosed wheelhouse in the world(100 feet wide-which was the beam of the ship(See pic below).The central console was supplemented by consoles at either side of what would be the (enclosed) bridge wings.These were linked by a couple swivelling Captain's chairs on a trackway--just make sure it was locked if you sat on it when the ship was rolling across the Atlantic!..Actually she didn't roll that much if I remember,as she had Flume Tanks fitted.
It was winter when I sailed in her,so that fully enclosed wheelhouse served it's purpose on that icy Atlantic run.It made listening out for ship's fog signals meaningless though,as no windows could be opened.I recall there was a ship's whistle detector system fitted(which wasn't working)-these weren't very successful I believe,and were still very much experimental even though(I 'm open to correction) they were first experimented with on a ?French liner.
We also had one of the first fax weather machines fitted on the Bridge,on loan from the U.S.Gov.This was Sparky's 'baby'(no,he l wasn't called an Electronics Officer then).Only him and Senior Officers were allowed to touch it,but one morning when,as a Cadet,I was on the 4-8 with the Mate,I accidentally set it going whilst cleaning around the equipment,and before the Mate could stop the damn thing it had spewed out many sheets of various unwanted( i.e.not our area)weather reports....I believe that paper was expensive or hard to order or something.Needless to say I wasn't popular for a while.
There were so many more reflections in that fully enclosed wheelhouse,too,and I don't think the lookouts liked it either,it was warm ,yes,but not like being at sea,and I would have missed going out onto the bridge wings in warmer weather.


Oh,and by the way ----replying to J.C(that's John Cassell-not the walk -on -water chappie), --please leave our resident Chief Engineer/Surveyor Jimmy alone.
He imparts a lot of erudite wisdom to us,but occasionally he throws in a humorous gem to titillate us,especially after a couple of malts....but then,J.C,at least our Jimmy has a sense of humour,unlike many of you,wouldn't you say?

Regards to All,old and new!

Gulliver

[John Cassels]

Ah , that's a relief , it was a humorous gem was it ?.

Thought for a moment he was being serious.

[jimmys]

Dont worry about Gulliver he is just a " Siht Stirrer". The button on his head starts him off.
Most Officers are with the cruise companies for continuity of employment. I did a stint on a Chandris Passenger vessel in mid 1980's The Amerikanis. It did not suit me even though I was offered a permanent job with them. I had enough 25 years was enough. The vessel had been on a long charter to Costa and was in a poor state.
A very heavy responsibility as Chief Engineer in fact a heavy responsibility as any Officer. The Mate was Greek as were all the other officers and I had not one complaint about any of them. The crew were Greek, Mexican and Panamanian.
The Carnival Splendour is different. Normally fires strong enough to burn into switchboards and cabling will burn thro' A60 bulkheads and deckheads. They do not burn with white smoke. An A60 bulkhead will hold back an A class fire for 60 minutes. An A class fire is a pile of wood sticks. That is all it is nothing more. A good going engine fire will walk through the bulkheads and deckheads, thats why you need to boundary cool. If there was a serious engine room fire we would see the damage.
I think the cabling fire is through reverse power and when it flared after the CO2 injection they were trying to force one of the five remaining alternators on to the damaged board. All they have is six main alternators. Main electricals all 10kVolts 60hz any other voltage required is transformed.
The breakers for the six main alternators are rated around 15,000kW and are massive. If after a serious engine fault in number five it trips either on lub oil or mist detector (Graviner). The breaker has got to clear it from the switchboard. There is not time for an engineer to do it. If it does not the other five alternators attempt to drive the damaged alternator. It is called reverse power and we do not want to go into it any more. An extremely dangerous situation. What we see on the Splendour is what it causes.
I think I will stick to the technology of thunderboxes more my style.
By the way if the vessel has an auto system it will attempt to close any alternator running to the switchboard in a blackout situation.
Gulliver needs to patent that button he has. Should have been one on the Splendour.

regards
jimmy

[Gulliver]

I believe you,R.Mariner

There are quite a few other cruise-ship staff aboard our British MN website here,as well as many ex-passenger- ship men and girls,plus quite a few cruise ship passengers,and we've all had these little debates before about we dinosaurs( in our Noah's Arks ) versus you newbies(in your blocks of sea-going flats)!


Mind you I'm not such a dinosaur,you know,it was only 20 years ago that I swallowed the anchor-and I do try to keep up with new legislation and marine developments...

I certainly hope that you would feel safer on a British manned cruise liner,I 'd hope that watchkeeping standards and seamanship skills have not declined in the last 20 years.

But.... they are not totally British manned are they,and the real test comes when an instruction to a 'foreign' crew member is misunderstood,or worse,reacted to adversely because of some unforeseen 'barrier ' to communication 'or because of the difference in each nationality's psyche( or make-up) if you like.
At least with an all British crowd,you have a pretty good idea how an order or instruction either to an individual or a team will be received and carried out.


And John,(Cassels),there are all kinds of humour,you know.When I was at sea it was definitely something I learned to recognise,and often made allowances for.It's not much different here on a website of like-minded individuals, who mostly have the experience and knowledge of the marine sea-going environment.


All the Best to You both.
Safe Watch!

Gulliver

[John Cassels]

Ok Gulliver , I accept Jimmy's remark was meant as a bit of humour.

My mistake that I didn't see it at the time. Thanks for pointing it out again.

[jimmys]

In the late eighties/early nineties the new system was brought in for UK Cadets. At Glasgow there was extremely low throughput at a level we thought the College may close. This was both disciplines.
Saudi Arabia put forward a substantial number of Cadets for training. These Cadets were to be the basis of the future Saudi shipping administration.
I was the Examiner of Engineers and looked after the Engineers and the Examiner of Masters and Mates looked to the Nauticals. Most of the seatime was tanker time in UK manned Saudi ships. I do not want to get into comparisons as it may upset some of our persons.
The product was good and I saw and examined some of these Cadets to First Class Certificates, nothing wrong with them. The system was good not necessarily nationality factors.
There is finance I am told to raise the numbers to around 400 cadets at Glasgow but we are not there yet. Facilities are good.
GovUK have discovered you train a Cadet he gets a job you train a media studies person he gets the dole.
Around 1997 I recall we had two Cadet Third Mates who were left without ships due to company failure and I was inspecting tankers at Finart. A Greek tanker lost its Master due to illness and everyone was promoted. They were a Third mate short and had problems recruiting in Greece. I said to the Super we have two in Glasgow, Scottish lads. He had a look and hired the two. One for the ship and one for another in Skaramanga. The lads said I never thought I would get a job and money like this. This was a front line Greek tanker company, good ships good conditions. Short of officers then and now.

regards
jimmy

[happy daze john in oz]

Gulliver mate you are most likely right but the modern cruise ship often has the bridge well below the various promanade decks. It does look a bit odd but then so do some of the modern ships. In my experiences here in Oz it would appear that the main crew are Asian, Philipino, etc but officers are a mixed bunch. A lot of English on U.S. owned shipos in australian waters and a lot of American on P&O in Australian waters. I was informed by one head chef that the reason for this is that they can pay a lower rate of pay if the officer is not in his native teritorial waters. How true i have no idea but it does fit in with the penny pinching mentality of Carnival and others. As for tips, a lot has changed on ships sailing from australian ports. A great number of locals have efused to pay the compulsory $7.50 per person per day stating thta here in Oz tipping is not the norm. Many of the cruises now advertised have fares including gratuities and if not you can ask the purser to have the levy removed from your cabin. I am booked on one for Christmas New Year and the ticket states gratuities not applicable. Most of the regular crew in Australian waters will tell you they do not expect tips from australian on the ship. Not thta we are tight wads, it is just not part of the culture here unlike U.S. Though for my part I have always left something for the peak steward and the winger who serves me.

[jimmys]

Yes John It must have been a pleasure to watch the Masters and Navigation Officers prancing around the Bridge. I have watched them often. The work is arduous and dangerous, pushing the little levers tire them out. Directing the Pilot and the half dozen tugs is seriously tiring.
I did note as well when I was a Senior Flag State Inspector that I could never find out what the Masters did either. They said they were on the Bridge but when I looked at the log book there was no trace of them. The deck officer was in full charge all the time and whenever there was any sort of incident the deck officer was always in charge. I realise they were Masters under god.
They said there was a number of documents that they had to produce and sign but when I inspected the vessels the standard of the vessel was not the same as the paperwork stated.
I often wondered what point there was the Master being on the bridge through bad weather and on a Texaco vessel we were steering from aft with the Third Mate and the Master was in his khazi. The best place for him.
Wonderful Wonderful.

regards
jimmy