Lost at Sea WW2 (Bic Island)

[Malcolm Salisbury]

Can anyone suggest how to verify the sinking of Bic Island 29/10/1942 in the Atlantic, Convoy HX212. All roads, to date, lead to UBoat.net where it is recorded that the ship was sank by U224 with the loss of all aboard. This cannot be true given my father in law was onboard, verified by his log book. The Commodores Log from HX212 also doesnt agree with UBoat.net nor the Log Book from U224. My suspicion is that survivors may have been picked up by a Royal Canadian Navy Corvette. Any suggestions would be great and also how to correct this. Thanks

[Hugh]

Welcome Malcolm,
Interesting!
U-boat.net is a terrific resource but not an infaliable one. All roads do lead there via "British and Commonwealth Merchant Ship Losses to Axis Submarines 1939-1945 and indeed Lloyd's War Losses Vol I. Both of those I have found mistakes and omissions but that is perhaps understandable given the sheer amount of ships lost.

I presume when you state he was aboard verified by his log book you mean his Dis.A Book, if so what does it state in the Date and Place of Engagement and Discharge column?
I have not seen the KTB for U-224 or the Commodores Log but I have read the report from the only survivor of the sub in 1943 and BIC ISLAND is not mentioned.

Probably, the first thing I would do would be to contact the website and ask what their sources are for that particular page.
You are also probably aware of the HX212 files at TNA Kew.
The last Crew Agreement for BIC ISLAND should be held at Kew in piece BT 381/1853

Regards
Hugh

[Des Taff Jenkins]

Hi Malcom.
I have the official book for all losses at sea during the last war, On Dec 16 1940 the ship Bic Island of 3921tons was bombed on the16th of Dec1940 and sunk
Now on the 20th of October 1942 the ship Bic Island of 4,000 tons was torpedoed by a U-boat and sunk.
The book only gives the the official positions of the sinking's in [Example 55.n5.n etc] no mention of any u boat skippers names or U boat numbers as it is an official book. It is possible that the two ships were from different countries
Des

[Doc Vernon]

Hi Des
Not disputing your post at all mate, however i think that both the Ships you mention are one and the same! In Dec of 1940 she was Bombed and damaged but not sunk.
Then in 1942 she was Sunk by UBoat
See the Link!
Cheers

Bic Island (Canadian Steam merchant) - Ships hit by German U-boats during WWII - uboat.net

[Malcolm Salisbury]

Hi Hugh, Ernie McMahon (Ships Cook) signed on to Bic Island 19/2/1942 in Liverpool, the ships movement records from TNA show that between Feb and Sept she traversed via Halifax, Montreal, Liverpool (17/9) to Halifax (2/10) and then HX212 from Halifax on 2/10. We assumed that Ernie stayed with the ship as the entry in the Discharge Column just says “report of discharge not available”, dated 26/4/1946. His next engagement was 10/1/1943 on Fort Fairford. The TNA ship movement card has a note written in red Torperdoed in 55.05N, 23.27W on 29/10 no trace as yet of wreck or survivors (c.l. 74530/10) lost presumed sunk (c.l751 6/11). He used to tell stories of his being torpedoed (twice) but this latter one is a bit of a mystery as to what happened.

[Hugh]

Hi Malcolm,

I have to say I am intregued now.

I did see and read the movement card but I would say that when it was written the true story would not have been known and it was never updated.

The "report of discharge not available" is in itself quite interesting and I can see how it fits your thinking. If it were me, I would want to obtain some more primary sources just to be sure (I say this without knowing how deep you have been researching him and the ship) The Ship's Official Logbook which includes the Crew Agreement would have gone down with the ship but the 'Red Copy' the copy held ashore which would have been used to establish casualty and death records may still give up some information. I would be looking at the entry at when he signs on and what if anything is stated in the discharge column of that Crew Agreement. The piece number I gave for the last C.A. in #2 above is correct but the link is not working so here it is again BT 381/1853 ship number,141871. Not withstanding the entry in his Dis.A, It would be important for me to make sure he had not signed off the ship in another port. As a researcher, I would always want to rule that part out and then move to the next bit.

I do know that there were some survivors from SOURABAYA and GURNEY E. NEWLYN were picked up by by HMCS ALBERNI and HMCS VILLE de QUEBEC and landed at Liverpool. The other survivors from those ships, unfortunately for them, were picked up by BIC ISLAND and, up until now at least, all who found themselves aboard that ship were thought to have perished in the sinking. The master of the SOURABAYA wrote a survivor's report for his ship to the Admiralty Trade Division, he mentions an unknown merchant ship which picked up some of his crew but unfortunately that rescue vessel was herself torpedoed later - we now know that was BIC ISLAND.

I would be interested to hear what the Commodore and the KTB of the uboat said?

I can also see Ernie on FORT FAIRFORD and a few other ships in 1943/4/5.
Regards
Hugh

[Des Taff Jenkins]

Hi Vernon.
Unusual that this book would have anything misreported but the fact that they give two different tonnage, also it usually states that the ship didn't sink, first mistake if one could call it that I have come across.
Des

[Malcolm Salisbury]

Hi Hugh, thanks this is very helpful I've requested Crew Agreements from TNA for the whole of 1942 just in case Ernie wasnt aboard Bic Island. the Commodores Report is referenced at Convoy HX 212 - warsailors.com. I have a download of the UBoat record from the archives in Germany and would be happy to share, not sure if this is possible via this forum or by email. Im slowly translating via google translate. I have emailed UBoat.net a couple of times asking where they get their information but have never received any reply.
Regards, Malcolm

[Des Taff Jenkins]

Concerning U-Boats but not this case.
In Sydney we had a bloke at our Vindi meetings who had been torpedoed by a U Boat, he found out that the U boat crews held a reunion every year; so he flew to Germany and went to one, believe it or not he met with some of the crew that had sunk his ship, they remembered it as their Captain went alongside their lifeboat and gave them cigarettes and directions which in which to sail.
Des

[Hugh]

Hi Hugh, thanks this is very helpful I've requested Crew Agreements from TNA for the whole of 1942 just in case Ernie wasnt aboard Bic Island.

Hi Malcolm,
That may not be an easy ask. Their charges are pretty hefty for looking at large files and picking out parts of it. Best if you are able to go yourself or if you have a researcher who knows what they are looking for. An alternative may be to request a quote for his CRS 10 but even for that simple file it would cost you circa £52. We will see what they say.

Regards
Hugh