Defensively Equipped Merchant Ship's - 1944

[Peter French]

Apologies if this is answered in another thread. I have been trying to research my father's war service. He was an army gunner and worked on DEMs on North Atlantic and North Sea convoys. I thought I had read somewhere that pay and victualling records would become available in April this year, but have been unable to find out where! I think these records would give me his Merchant Navy Number which the MoD Army records don't show, and so I could learn more about which ships he was on including the one he was on that capsized in the Thames estuary. Many thanks for any pointers.

[Hugh]

Apologies if this is answered in another thread. I have been trying to research my father's war service. He was an army gunner and worked on DEMs on North Atlantic and North Sea convoys. I thought I had read somewhere that pay and victualing records would become available in April this year, but have been unable to find out where! I think these records would give me his Merchant Navy Number which the MoD Army records don't show, and so I could learn more about which ships he was on including the one he was on that capsized in the Thames estuary. Many thanks for any pointers.

Hi Peter,
I think you may have picked up some incorrect information on D.E.M.S.

Firstly, Pay & Victualing ledgers won't help you at all as they only concern the Royal Navy.
Second, Army or Navy D.E.M.S. did not have Merchant Navy numbers. Although they signed the Articles of Agreement as members of the ship's crew, they had their own service numbers.

D.E.M.S. is one of my interests and happy to help if I can. Would you wish to give his name and place of birth?

Regards
Hugh

[Peter French]

Hi Hugh, Many thanks for your prompt response and for your offer of help.
My father, George Albert French, was born in London, on 7/3/17. From his army records he appears to have been "afloat" 17.7.41-21.7.41, 28.7.41-10.9.41, 16.8.41-18.8.41 and 16.10.41-19.10.41. However, these dates seem brief and probably relate to his time on Coasters on the North Sea.

I know he was on Atlantic Convoys, I think but am not sure in 42. One of his ships capsized in 42 or 43 in the Thames Estuary following a collision, after which he was invalided out. He was awarded the Atlantic Star which seems to have been issued on 24.10.48.
Many thanks for your time and interest. Any info or leads would be very welcome.
Peter

[Hugh]

Hi Peter,
Nothing I can see in the online sources or indeed my own files.

Army D.E.M.S. are perhaps the most difficult to research as their military records don't show the ships they served aboard. I presume on his records where it states being 'afloat' that it mentions his 'maritime card' if so, this is the key but it may be tricky getting hold of this document at the moment as the MOD is transferring army records to the National Archives, Kew. The only other way to research him would be through MN crew lists but you would need to know the name of a ship first to use this approach.

The files of interest to you would be those below especially WO 435. But as I say they have not been transferred to Kew yet so it may be worth contacting the Ministry of Defence. I have had some poor feedback from some who have asked them about whether they hold those files - which is just typical MOD.

WO 435 - Defensively Equiped Merchant Ships (DEMS): Ships Cards.
WO 436 - Defensively Equiped Merchant Ships (DEMS): Royal Artillery Maritime Regiments Medal Cards.

Regards
Hugh

[John Pruden]

all through the war my dad being a blacksmith did the ship repair in harland and wolfe putting dems and bofore guns and even through air raids they never stopped work it must have been frightening working over there he tried the navy a few times but he could not get in because of his trade? jp

[Peter French]

Dear Hugh, Many thanks indeed for your time. I'll make a note of these WO files and follow up as best I can. Incidentally, the MOD records I have make no mention of a maritime card.I will let you know if I find out more.
Regards, Peter.

[Ravenglass]

A thought on the payment of 1/- shilling per week. My then wife accompanied me, E/E/O, on my second ship. All the wives had to sign the ships articles and in order to do so had to have a nominal job on board. My wife was signed on as a Writer and was, I think, it's a long time ago now, officially paid £1 per week. It was a nominal sum as she in fact did not receive it.

Could it be that the 1/- per week was for the same purpose of enabling the Army DEMS to be signed on as nominal Deck Hands on the ships articles?

[Hugh]

Could it be that the 1/- per week was for the same purpose of enabling the Army DEMS to be signed on as nominal Deck Hands on the ships articles?

Army and Navy deck hands were indeed paid a nominal sum by the shipping company when signing articles. They were also given civilian clothing to wear while ashore in foreign ports. The signing of Articles meant that they were considered full members of the ship's crew and therefore under the direct authority of the Master.

Regards
Hugh

[Peter French]

Thanks again Hugh, a further update:- I have now received a reply to my enquiries to the Army Historic Disclosures Office (Glasgow) regarding the Maritime Cards. These were never held by themselves but they know that they were moved to HM Naval Base Portsmouth in 2019 and then onward movement to the N.A. I have since made enquiries to the N.A. regarding this and they tell me that the Maritime Cards are held within W.O. 436/1 to 38 at Kew. Would you like me to update you If I find any information which may be of interest to you after my visit to the N.A. later this month?
Regards, Peter.

[j.sabourn]

Peter , I hope Hugh sees your post , but he hasn’t been on this site for quite a long time , I think he is more gainfully employed elsewhere , a real pity as he was top of the pops with his hereditary experience and the places to look. Someone may know where to contact him if you are seeking his advice. Cheers JS.