Safety and the Shipowner

[Capt Bill Davies]

I thought this topic warranted a thread of its own. The initiating comment is emboldened below



Shipowners believe that if Safety costs money, then Forget it..

I don’t think that is particularly true and rather a sweeping statement. I suspect it was ‘tongue in cheek’ on the side of the author. Shipowners per se, are now few and far between and those that are still in the game usually ‘outsource’ the management to third party Shipmanagers.

This is where I believe the problem lies.

Safety is intrinsically linked with quality and competence of the crew.

I think it unwise also, to jump to the conclusion that ‘quality and competence’ is the domain of the Brits.

As a starter to get the debate rolling.

I recall an incident on a Liberian Bulk Carrier in 1972 which I have related to in previous posts ‘Wheelhouse Chairs” which had enormous impact on the ‘thinking’ of many operators in the US and caused by the actions of a British Second Mate falling asleep on the bridge. This guy lost his Liberian Certificate and was subsequently sighted up for his British First Mates in the UK in the early 70s. I often wonder how many of this ‘Professional Second Mates’ subsequent employers knew of his background.

Did the agent, manager do their job competently?


Brgds

Bill

[Chris Allman]

The recent rash of incidents in the Irish Sea, eg, Swanland, Union Moon and now Carrier leave me with cause for concern. I note that these ships were all manned by foreign crews and I wonder if pressure for financial reasons was put on these foreign crews from their owners / operators and was responsible for risks being taken with the safety of the ships, that would not normally be taken. Swanland sank in extremely bad weather, Carrier it would appear was caught on an exposed berth by the weather and Union Moon was in collision having a master under the apparent influence of alcohol.

Why was Swanland at sea in such terrible conditions, there was plenty of warning of the bad weather and she had adequate time to seek shelter, what caused the master to continue with his voyage.

Carrier was on a very exposed berth, again the warning of bad weather was adequate and she had time to lay off or seek shelter. What caused the master to delay until such times as the ship became vulnerable.

Union Moon was in command of a master under the apparent influence of alcohol, what caused him to be in such a condition.

There has been no suggestions of any inadequacies in the qualifications or skills of the masters or crews, in fact quite the contrary nor has there been any apparent indication of any serious inadequacies in the vessels concerned, so why did these incidents occur ?.

Are commercial pressures outweighing safety or can all three be put down to simple ' human error ' ?

Chris.

[Captain Kong]

Also Chris, the Masters of both the Union Star, same company as Union Moon, and the Pool Fisher `appeared` to be under pressure from the Owners or Charter Parties, unfortunately both Masters are dead and cannot answer.
In the case of the POOL FISHER, repeated requests for the hatch cleats to be repaired were put off, resulting in the tarps coming adrift several times and assisting with the ingress of water to the hatch. Also a lack of sufficient locking bars for the hatches. Things like this mean taking the ship out of service for a day or so, so that also costs money.
.
.
I was Master of a ship coming round North Foreland heading for Newhaven, in a hurricane, the same one that turned Seven Oaks in Kent that then became One Oak, The wind over 100 knots, as I arrived at the corner the wind from the west was pushing me astern , I had the Goodwins on my port quarter so was very concerned, I turned and ran before it and went to a Good anchorage I knew, half a mile off Deal Pier in the Downs. Quite safe.
I recieved a phone call from the Marine Super, "Are you in Newhaven Yet?"
Me "No, I am anchored in the Downs!" Him , "WHAT THE HELL FOR, ?" shouting down the phone. "Get your A**e into Newhaven, NOW", Me, "I am sheltering from the hurricane, I was going astern.". Him, "What hurricane ?, there is no wind here". Me, I gave a "strangled choaking gurgle" down the phone and switched it off. the phone was dead.
I told the Mates, "Do not touch the phone, I am turning in," I filled in the Night order book and told them we would review the situation in the morning .
Next day the weather had eased so we proceeded to Newhaven, nothing was said, the hurricane was all over the newspapers and TV News.
So it sometimes pays to stand up to the Bullies in the Office,
Cheers
Brian.

[Ivan Cloherty]

The recent rash of incidents in the Irish Sea,
Chris.

Food for thought Chris, but on the "Carrier" all the crew were Polish, there would have been no language difficulties and the Polish are very professional seamen trading under their own flag worldwide and running numerous ferries in the Baltic.

I suspect commercial pressures may have made the Master take a decision he will live to regret but we will probably never learn the truth of why he took that decision to place his vessel in such a precarious position.What ever it was it must have been a decision not taken lightly, he will probably be loyal to his owners, because that is what ship masters do, but will they be loyal to him.

As has been mentioned previously, pressure by owners or managers is nothing new, in the 50's when I was mate of a small coaster I had to relieve the Master of command, not a decision taken lightly, because he set sail in a force 9 out of Perth heading for the south coast, by the time we were abeam of Newcastle the weather had not abated and was set to become worse, he wanted to carry on, the crew approached me to persuade him otherwise as all were seasoned seamen but apprehensive about the voyage being completed, I concurred with them. I think the Master was relieved when I had him led to his cabin as he stated he had to get the cargo to the south to make another cargo that the owner's insisted he should not miss. The owners placed the man under so much pressure his seamans common sense went out of the window. We eventually reached our destination about 30 hours late, the other cargo was still there! No entries were made in any Log Books and I wished him no harm because he was a good man and all decisions were logged as To Master's Orders. I left the ship on reaching the south and thereafter sailed only with companies where the chartering departments had "some" (but not a lot) understanding that bad weather delays ships.

I suspect that nothing has changed despite all the rules and regulations that have to be fulfilled these days.

[John Arton]

To further fuel the debate, lets consider the role of ports in these incidents.
In my experience, despite working for a very reputable and responsible company, if the weather was particularly bad most of the ports we visited on a regular basis, would still do there utmost to get you to depart the berth once cargo operations were completed, even to the extent of over carrying pilots should the pilotage be suspended. Despite my owners trying to get laybay berths there were many times we were told by the port that non were available and as in most ports the actual berths are owned by the operator or leased from the port for there individual use, so once a vessel completes operations at their berth they are only interested in getting you to vacate the berth even if there is not another ship due for the berth even if the weather is o.k. This is because if a ship is on their berth they have to man the berth with security personnel etc. even if the ship is not working. Very few ports have designated layby berths for ocean shipping so the onus is always on the captain to sail, despite the efforts (if any) of the owners and the agents to secure a layby berth until weather abates. The thinking of the ports seems to be, they could always seek shelter somewhere so long as it was not in their port.
As I guess that the ships listed in the posts above were not required to carry pilots then that is another pressure on the master to sail and things may only change if one of these ships were to sail with a pilot and disaster overtook the ship and the pilot was also a casualty but as I said before, nearly all of these ships are allowed to enter and leave many ports without the service of a pilot.
rgds
Capt. John Arton (ret'd)

[Chris Allman]

The crew were Polish on all three vessels Ivan, I did not mention that, because I did not want to single out any particular country in case it was taken as a criticism of them as seamen.

Chris.

[Capt Bill Davies]

I think the ‘Bullies in the Office’ which Brian refers to have always been with us no matter what flag we are talking about. They invariably back down when challenged and I never ‘wavered’ from my own convictions. Many of the owners I sailed with just wanted you to take full command of the situation without office interference. There was never interference from NBC and similarly, seeking advice from NY was frowned upon and tantamount to handing in your resignation. The Greek owners could be difficult, as some had a seagoing background (albeit in fishing boats in some cases, one always sported a Captains Cap!!) which thought that could sway my own decisions. It never worked. Fishing boats and 499k ULCCs are not the same.
Brgds

Bill

[happy daze john in oz]

In an ear where litigation is taken up at the drop of a hat I somehow do not think the cruise companies, the responsible ones, would enter into any unseemly practices. Have had three occasions over the last two year where the ship we were on could not enter or leave a port due to inclement weather. But also recalll spending additional nights in Cape Town when the wind was so bad they would not pull the ship from the quay.

[Capt Bill Davies]

The recent rash of incidents in the Irish Sea, eg, Swanland, Union Moon and now Carrier leave me with cause for concern. I note that these ships were all manned by foreign crews and I wonder if pressure for financial reasons was put on these foreign crews from their owners / operators and was responsible for risks being taken with the safety of the ships, that would not normally be taken.


Whilst I would concede I have know experience of this size of vessel or the operation of the same, I think it important to separate two separate issues here and they are:

1. The nationality of the crew
2. The safety aspect.

• I see absolutely nothing wrong with a ‘wholly Polish’ crew as there is unlikely to be any communication problems.

• Has safety been compromised by ‘commercial pressures’. I think one has to look at the caliber of the UK managers of two of the above and the German managers of latest casualty.

Ultimately, it’s down the Master and crew and the quality and competence therein.

Bill

[Ivan Cloherty]

Bill I think you meant to say "no experience"

Whilst the nationality of the crew may have some bearing, I doubt it, as was mentioned earlier we all agree that the Polish are good professional seamen in their own right.

On the coast safety has always been compromised by commercial pressures. Your experience as a Master of a 499,000VLCC puts you in a postion to say "get stuffed" to owners who want you to take risks etc. On the coast on 600-2000 tonne coasters it's a different matter, you are always "tide chasing" for the next port and cargo, or it was in my day and I doubt anything has changed, especially as it seems from the various comments on this sight professionalism is getting less and less. If you were not willing to follow Head Office orders even if your judgement said you shouldn't, but you did, why because there was always someone ready to step into your shoes and you also had a mortgage to pay. And I think it was John Arton (Sorry if I've mis-spelled that) a lot of Port Authorities, incidentally run by ex Master Mariners, would not let you have a laybye berth until the weather abated, as they had trouble getting fees from shipwners who tried to invoke a "Force Majeur" situation, so if you didn't pay the fees it was pizz-off into the storm and take your chances, it's not my problem.

So ultimately it was "not always" down to the competence of the Master or crew. Coasting was a very different game to deep sea and probably still is, you were not always Master of your own Destiny.