Costa Concordia Trial

[Ivan Cloherty]

Ivan when working out east did you ever have contact with an Indian company called Chowgule. They had a c ouple of ships under the Bahamas flag and the rest of fleet under the Indian flag. Ships names started with Maratha. Cheers John Sabourn

John, rings a bell from my time living in Pakistan and doing surveys in India, but don't recall any special incidents or meetings. I'm trying to recall the funnel markings, think they were black with red markings and a symbol, possibly a star, similar to Scindia. Rgds

[j.sabourn]

Only reason I asked was because the owner Chowgule himself lived in Switzerland. Buff funnel, black top , outline of a pennant in white, with a big C in white. Those were Nassau reg ships the Indian flag ones may have been different. Quite a good company to work for actually. Cheers John Sabourn

[John Arton]

John S. and Ivan
SOLAS Conventions on the harmonisation of certificates should I say, eliminated any difference in different flag states interpretation of the regulations such as the 10 or 15 deg list against which lifeboats can be launched etc.
Having said that there is most likely still the odd ship sailing around that is in class and is well maintained etc. that could have been built under a different flag states regulations. The only flags I have sailed under or taking ships over from were U.K., Cayman, Gibraltar, Norway, Bermuda, Hong Kong and Liberia.
rgds
JA

[Ivan Cloherty]

John S. and Ivan
SOLAS Conventions on the harmonisation of certificates should I say, eliminated any difference in different flag states interpretation of the regulations such as the 10 or 15 deg list against which lifeboats can be launched etc.
Having said that there is most likely still the odd ship sailing around that is in class and is well maintained etc. that could have been built under a different flag states regulations. The only flags I have sailed under or taking ships over from were U.K., Cayman, Gibraltar, Norway, Bermuda, Hong Kong and Liberia.
rgds
JA

John my surveys were in 60's and 70's on the flag changes so can't recall if SOLAS was effective in all matters then, my other experiences were in the 80's with Greek, Panamanian, Singapore flags with S'pore flag being nearest to British regulations which in my experience had always surpassed any international regulations, whether or not they do today I couldn't comment on. Last trip on a British flag ship was a few weeks in 1986 as a supernummery, master seemed to have his authority limited by having one hand tied behind his back at all times and constantly on the telex to head office, must say it didn't appeal to me, but it was nice to get the deck under your feet and wander up to the foc'le for a bit of solitude and occasionally get stuck-in on a washdown, old habits die hard. Last time I stepped aboard a commercial vessel was around 2010 when outfitting her with electro hydraulic grabs..........................memories. We seem to have drifted off the CC trial course, but don't we always?

[j.sabourn]

By what I am surmising here is that for better or worse the British Regulations including SOLAS ( Safety of Life at Sea) have been modified/ changed or whatever one wants to call it to bring everyone under the umbrella so to speak. This of course refers to such Nations who want to be involved. Similar to the UN where no one ever hears of those not party to the agreements. I suppose everyone to their own agreements with these changes which were brought about for whatever reason be it for supposedly better financial or safety reasons. Most of us would say the usual why change it when it works ok. Maybe we don't have the intelligence of our supreme ministers in the appropriate ministries. Cheers John Sabourn

[Red Lead Ted]

Tut Tut Ted, whilst I agree with the majority of what you said, I'm afraid I must take issue with your last line, does that mean the skippers of the distant water trawlers I sailed with to Iceland, Bear Island, the White Sea were not professional seamen, because I can assure they were in every respect and frequently faced conditions every year that most deep water men may not face in a lifetime. To reach their command they had to progress up a very hard ladder and take multiple exams en-route. Now if you had said 'Italian Lothario' then I could agree with you.

I have every sympathy with the helmsman on the CC who apparently had faithfully served the company for over eleven years (From all accounts to date), so would be fully conversant with port and starboard in Italian, (and probably other languages) from the Master, OOW and pilots during that 11 year period. He was probably given many confusing instructions from what appears to be a mismanaged bridge from 'evidence' heard to date from the Master's subordinates.

No Ivan my mate I was not alluding to the fisherman you sailed with. I take issue with the Peruvian fisherman who made up most of her deck crew. They never got out to sea far enough to open the bond, Because they wouldn't know what a ships bond was. But lets not forget I was at Gravesend with fisherman who had put to sea from Lowestoft and had a few trips under there belt. B.O.T. Regulation to obtain a seaman's discharge book we all had to have the formal training. Apart from D.H.U.s of course when there was a shortage of M. Seaman, From what I have seen that went on aboard the Costa Concordia was an abortion. Woman with radio contact to the bridge telling passengers to stop panicking and go back to their cabin. I have no doubt that the fisherman you and I both sailed with would have read the situation very differently and got the passengers the hell of that ship Regards Terry.

[Red Lead Ted]

Quote :" Even though it is early days in the trial of the captain of the Costa Concordia I would like to open a discussion and see where it leads us.
The first major piece coming out of the trial is the assertion by Captain Schettino that the helmsman is to blame for not reacting promptly to his command and that if he had, there would have been no collision with the underwater shelf.
I know that when I was steering every command given by a bridge officer or pilot had to be immediately repeated by the helmsman. This is one of the most basic rules of steering procedure and was drilled into me from the first moment I stood behind the wheel. I find it very odd that after the captain gave a command and when there was no immediate response from the helmsman the captain didn’t react at once. These are the basics. You give a command, it comes right back at you. Any captain or officer on a well-managed bridge should have been aware of this. So where does the fault lie? With the captain or the helmsman? The other thing worth mentioning was that the helmsman was Indonesian and perhaps he didn’t understand the command. One has to ask the question how any master of a major multimillion dollar cruise ship could allow critical bridge personnel be in such a position of responsibility and not have a very good command of the language. But what was the language spoken on the bridge? English, Italian? Interesting! Something is not right about all of this.
I think that as the trial goes on there will be many more items brought up that will keep us all enthra"



I have many friends who are pilots and some in SE Alaska. The reports I am getting from their perspective are scary, -- Pilot gives a helm order and every officer repeats that order, the last one to get a word in let alone repeat the order is the helmsman. Far too much BS has come out of this unfortunate incident. Including people sitting in some office tracking and reporting any deviation or any "non compliant" conversation even if is necessary for the vessels safety.
Glad I am retired! In my last company I was expected, as Master, to deviate for interesting or unusual sightings, to take the ship in as close as possible even stop to give all passengers an opportunity to get pictures etc. Having said that I guess I was lucky never to have any accidents.

Malcolm

Malcolm, Regardless as to whether the rock was chartered or not, Would you as a skipper for one moment have put he wheel to port. He was renown for show boating. And apparently liked to please the Female,s amongst his company. Terry.

[Captain Kong]

I think the Court will also consider the ATHENS AGREEMENT.............
.ARTICLE 3.
The Carrier, [ ship owner], shall be liable for the damage suffered as a result of the Death or Personal injury to a passenger and the loss of luggage, [ both things happened,] which was due to the fault or neglect of the Carrier or his Servants or his agents within the scope of his employment...................
.
So within that article Costa as well as Schettino will be on trial.
.
Cheers
Brian

[Red Lead Ted]

Yes, Brian there are a lot of acquisitions to be taken into consideration here its not just Schettino on trial, A lot of things have to be taken into account as I said in my post. I to looked at the Athens Agreement, One thing for sure it is going to cost this shipping company quite a few bob, Not just in bedroom tax, To many empty rooms {PUN} But the whole integrity of the company Terry.

[happy daze john in oz]

Malcom, " There for the grace of God go I", I am even surprised by todays standards there was even a man on the wheel. Automatic steering is much more accurate than anyone can steer, only the thought of a power failure is a deterrent I suppose. I am quite used to be expected to maintain a course of half a degee on each side when shooting lines on a seismic survey, this can only be done on a very sophisticated automatic system, sitting in a big padded chair and applying corrections by means of buttons. At the very least I suppose he did conform to the publically expected man at the wheel theme. The worst thing that could have happened to this man personally was the advent of the press and the so ca lled statements of falling into a boat. As someone has already said the court system is different to ours, and what appears to us as him trying to pass the buck, will not appear to him to be the same. There is no doubt in my mind he has very little chance of not taking the brunt of the disaster, one of the priviliges of the position he held. Regards John Sabourn

Yes John automatic sterring should be seen as far more acurate. But from what I have observed many of the cruise ships only use that once th epilot has been dropped off so using manual at this point may have been in order. However the repeating of a comand on the bridge is normal practice but with so many nationalities on ships these days it is hard to know if English is fully understood. My understanding is that English is the international language used by pilots on ships just as with all aircraft where English is the language of communication.
But the fact the helmsman has already pleaded guilty and as such will not be required to testify leaves a big gap in the story.