SS Rother & Merchant Navy

[Scott McIntosh]

Hi there,

I'm new to the forum. I've come here to better understand the structure of the Merchant Navy in general and also to ask about a ship that I know a little about and have seen a couple of photos.

The ship being the SS Rother.

I am looking to see if there are any records kept as to her movements during 1943. Specifically Late April 1943.

I have two civilian war dead that I am trying to link into a DEMS gunnery range aircraft accident.

I would like to know if there are any movements recorded anywhere as well as a photo I could use with Credit of course on my own website.

The 2 war dead are two Merchant Seaman.

George Alan Osborne aged 37 buried in Goole cemetery
&
Stephen Thacker aged 23 buried in Sutton In Ashfield cemetery.

I also have an American Merchant Seaman who was lost at the same time. I seem to remember something about him online being a bare knuckle fighter and having been sunk twice before arrive here in the UK on a Liberty Ship. The SS James Whitcomb Riley I think was the ship he was on but I've not been able to confirm this through any records. He has been linked to the Rother because of the only other two civilians on this same course but I dont think the 2 are linked.

His name is Louis Hiram Carpenter sometimes mentioned in records as Lewis.

Could anyone help and point me in the right direction to seek the answers to these and possibly many more questions.

Some sort of official records that could be looked up would be great but any information would be good.

Thanks in advance.

Regards Scott McIntosh

[Doc Vernon]

Ship Movements for Ship ss Rother 1939- 1946

Ship Name: Rother Gross Tonnage: 986 | The National Archives

Hope this is the correct one .
Cheers
Free to download but you must have an account with the NA, but thats also free

ss Rother.JPG

[Scott McIntosh]

Hi Doc,

Fantastic yes I do think this is the correct SS Rother.

It is certainly the photo I have seen already.

I will have a look at the file. Luckily I am registered with a Reader Ticket and have visited the archive before. 2019 I think was the last time. Spent 2 days there.

Regards Scott

[Scott McIntosh]

Would there be a ships log anywhere in records that would detail the day to day running of the ship?

For example if the hit a mine or the engine stopped working. Or crew notes. Crew member that would have been given warnings or sickness on the sailing.

All very new to me with ships as aircraft are really my thing. Working on a new website and the men detailed and the Rother all add to the tale.

What Im really trying to do is prove that these men were killed in the same accident as each other or rather died as a result if their injuries. The Voyage log suggests that there were in Leith at the time and this matches with the hospital the guys died in. But I just need to try and prove it.

Thanks again.

Scott

[Doc Vernon]

The only place that i can suggest is once again te NA at Kew, they do i know hold many Ships Logs but for what years is the question. The best way for this is to Visit again and ask the Staff for some help on this !
There is just the Maritime University in Canada that may also hold the Crew List for that Ship (Dates again not sure?) but as i and many others have obtained our old Crew Lists from there in the past, my lists show quite a few Logs along with the Crew Listings! Some very interesting readings i may say!
So that is all i can suggest at this time !
Cheers and best of!

Merchant Navy ships' official logs project - The National Archives blog

Also just wondering if this may be her? Not to confuse but who knows hey!
ROTHER - ShipSpotting.com - Ship Photos, Information, Videos and Ship Tracker

[j.sabourn]

#4 The only log for day to day running is the watch keeping logs these are filled in every 4 hours at sea and continuously in port of all activitys. They used to be known as the Scrap Log purely because the fair copy was rewritten in ink and posted back to the Owners when practible. However someone had the bright idea of using carbon paper and the copies were torn out and posted back.All Deck and Engine room logs as such were a record of the on board life 24 hours a day and were the property of the owner , it was up to him whether they went with the. Ship or not if it was sold. The place for these to be found would be the shipowners office but as such rarely exists today it will be a hard search. In the case of shipwreck or other calamity the then BOT was the first thing they looked for at any Enquiry.
JS

[Hugh]

I have two civilian war dead that I am trying to link into a DEMS gunnery range aircraft accident.

I would like to know if there are any movements recorded anywhere as well as a photo I could use with Credit of course on my own website.

The 2 war dead are two Merchant Seaman.

George Alan Osborne aged 37 buried in Goole cemetery
&
Stephen Thacker aged 23 buried in Sutton In Ashfield cemetery.

I also have an American Merchant Seaman who was lost at the same time. I seem to remember something about him online being a bare knuckle fighter and having been sunk twice before arrive here in the UK on a Liberty Ship. The SS James Whitcomb Riley I think was the ship he was on but I've not been able to confirm this through any records. He has been linked to the Rother because of the only other two civilians on this same course but I dont think the 2 are linked.

His name is Louis Hiram Carpenter sometimes mentioned in records as Lewis.

Hello and welcome Scott,

I actually do believe the two merchant seamen and the US merchant seamen's deaths are linked.

The two MN seamen both died in an Edinburgh hospital [Astley Ainslie] accidental while attending a gunnery course on shore (DAS Register - source] The death extracts don't mention what they were doing or where but as I said the DAS Register confirms they were on a gunnery course on that day.

The US seaman Louis Harim Carpenter died at 3.50pm on the same day. He died from accidental burns, multiple injuries (aeroplane accident) but the death extract states he died at the Fernie Ness Firing Range.
During WW2 Ferny Ness, East Lothian was used as a dive bombing range (Fleet Air Arm) and a Naval Gunnery Practice Range. The two merchant seamen are mentioned in the link below.
https://2ndww.blogspot.com/2007/11/w...ess-range.html

Your other question about daily running of the ship. You need the Ship's Official Logbook for 1943. This document includes the Crew Agreement and also many other sections some pretty mundane such as lifeboat drills etc but it does have a narrative section which mainly deals with crew issues and discipline aboard but the Master would log any incidents or deaths and althought the two seamen didn't die aboard his ship, he may have referred to the fact that two of his seamen died ashore on a DEMS gunnery course. You would need to check it for yourself. The 1943 logbook is held under the ship's official number, 128883, at TNA Kew in piece BT 381/2257

I hope that helps - any questions please feel free.

Regards
Hugh

[j.sabourn]

If they were crew members the master would have to make an entry in the official log book in the Births ,Deaths and Marriages . If they weren’t signed on crew members their whys and wherefores would be handled by the local authorities. The master for those who don’t know is responsible for all crew members which covers their welfare also. JS

[Scott McIntosh]

Hi Hugh,

Having researched this accident for around 20 years I do feel that these 3 deaths are linked. I feel that they were all on the same course together but as yet I have been unable to prove it beyond doubt.

All the blogs and pages have some errors and don't mention any of the injured in the accident. I hope to go just a little bit further than most do with thus story. But still there will be missing names or details.


What is the DAS register. Forgive me as I have no clue about ships. Ah I might have got it Deaths at Sea?

Again would they be held at Kew.

The problem with naming these 2 as being killed on this course is that there were more than one range in the area and they could have been injured elsewhere. I feel sure they are linked though as the injuries I have seen mentioned are consistent with the other 12 deals injuries. I have to try and prove it.


Thanks Hugh you have helped a lot.

[Scott McIntosh]

In the register of death it says they were certified by a hospital clerk. I'm not sure how this would work normally as usually when an aircraft crashes killing its pilot the death would be registered by a local RAF Officer in commander the local base doctor.

I might not be able to prove this if they were not on a ship at the time.


Where would be the best place to look for details of the American Merchant Seaman?