British merchant navy casualties during ww2

[WG Smith]

My research project has revealed inconsistencies in published WW2 Merchant Navy casualty data which I am having difficulty in reconciling.

Does anyone have a grasp of the definitive numbers and their composition. Some sources give 30,258 dead and 4,654 missing for a total of 34,902. Other published figures range up to 47,176 but include wounded and POWs. The CWGC gives a figure of 26,543 but I suspect excludes those who were not killed in action but whose death was attributable to other causes e.g. ship foundered, ran into Allied minefield etc.

Then there is the question of how many served during the war - not the purported estimated averages which seem to run from as little as 120,000 up to 195,000 depending for example whether the large Lascar component was included or not.

Finally and perhaps potentially most controversionally is it possible given the uncertainty around the numbers to arrive at a specific casualty rate? Bomber Command is used as a comparator but the quoted percentages exclude wounded and POWs whereas some of the published Merchant Navy figures appear to include these and in some instances others also include Commonwealth casualties.

So there you are, question for the day.

I believe it important to memorialise all those who made the ultimate sacrifice albeit in differing circumstances.

[j.sabourn]

#1.... I think in any large casuality lists be it during a war , during a civil disaster, a civil war, or civil unrest anywhere in the world, it will always be hard to find the true figures. A good example of this is the number of Jews killed during the Hitler years. Including the Jewish Nation in particular there were others such as Gypsies and other groups of people considered by the particular thinking of the Rulers of the day as sub-humans and having no right to live. Politicians and Rulers of countrys are not quick to release figures about lives lost as may interfere with other things , and think it best in a lot of cases to forgive and forget. It is only through people of a like mind who want the memories of those lost who do the research as far as they can possibly get that the truth will be more forthcoming. I always get a feeling of unreality when the statement is made " to those who gave their lives " myself I think it would be more truthful to say " to those who had their lives taken from them". No one gives their life away voluntarilly , unless it is to kill the pain of their wounds. JS

[WG Smith]

I agree with your last sentiment. But the truth is out there. The problem is with those who misunderstand or misrepresent the figures accidentally or deliberately perhaps for the best of intentions but lack the knowledge and ability to discern where the real truth lies. I think the internet is a negative factor in allowing the proliferation and spread of inaccurate information to the point where people believe it must be true.

But in this instance the complexities are such that as Sir William Elderton inferred in his 1946 Actuarial Analysis the truth may never be known. All we are left with is some sense of the scale of the loss we may never get close to the truth. But I shall persevere for now.

[Keith at Tregenna]

Possibly, if he does not see this or reply,
worth a PM to Deepsea, would think he
may assist.

Billy McGee MNM
MNA Archivist

Regards, Keith.

.

[j.sabourn]

Myself who maybe prejudiced as we all are to a greater or lesser extents on some subjects, would rather listen and take heed of what the layman reports rather than government or media sources. Unfortuanetley sometimes these are the only sources available or at hand. An ideal situation would be for the investigator to have the strings to pick up from a predesessor who was seeking the truth only. I read somewhere that during the last war the US government before doing the advances in the Pacific of the numeruous Japanese held islands, did an assessment of the expected casuality lists, and if too high jumped that particular island and went to the next. This no doubt was a political move and to gain the best of public opinion for low life loss. In a modern day war casuality figures will always be a figure for assessment before hand as it should be. In the past we have always had our oddballs like a post of that title. If what one reads about Balaclava and the Charge of the Light Brigade shows how ludicruous some of our own so called leaders of men actually were. Cheers JWS

[Des Taff Jenkins]

I have always followed Billy's figures to be as accurate as one can be, he has spent years of his life chasing up details of people who went to sea but have been forgotten in all the paper work or Govt inaction. Governments have hardly changed over the years, these days they just use shredders.
Des

Lest We Forget
redc.gif

[happy daze john in oz]

You ate right there Des.
It is only such as Billy that will ever show anything close to the truth.

Main problem is the media who will only publish what they think the public want to know, and the gov who only let the public know what they want them to.

[Keith at Tregenna]

There are many other factors that messed all up, which media / government and when ?

Touch wood a few still actually do much and may hopefully, sort most.

K.

.

[DeepSea]

I have been recording British & Commonwealth Merchant Navy casualties for many years and the figure below are what I have recorded on file. New casualties are still being brought to light and at present I am looking to get a further fifty-seven British casualties killed in WWII from US and Panamanian registered Merchant ships and a further eighteen from ship registered in the neutral Irish Republic whose deaths were not reported to the British Registrar General of Shipping & Seamen of the day, so as not to be included by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission for commemoration. Sixty plus new cases were recently added on to the Tower Hill Memorial in London for those British Merchant Seamen lost from the Norwegian Nortraships of WWII.

WWII stats for losses from ship flying the Red Ensign

Tower Hill Memorial 23,753
Tower Hill Memorial Addenda Panels 126
Buried Ashore 2,594
Canadian 1,554 (Halifax & Tower Hill Memorial)
Bombay/Chittagong Memorial 6,048
Hong Kong War Memorial 1,400
Liverpool Naval Memorial 1,400 (MN who served on RN vessels under the T124T & T124X Agreements)
Australian War Memorial 359
Disabled physically/mentally 11,600
Held illegally POW’s 5000
Misadventure/illness 5,361 (Not recorded with the CWGC)
Royal Navy DEMS 2,713
DEMS Maritime Regt. 1,222
DEMS from other Army Regiments 50
Commodores and Naval Staff 699

[Keith at Tregenna]

Echo Des #6: #

I also, have always followed Billy's figures.

Keith.