question regarding cadets and apprentices.

[Des Taff Jenkins]

Apologies to Ian and Vernon, eyesight not getting any better missed the Gypsum Queens sinking in my book.
Des

[Ivan Cloherty]

#9 Definitely British with signal letters GNCL as British ships into the 70/80's always started with a 'G' or 'M'

#10 JS experiences as an apprentice mirror my own in the 50's. Apprentices were indentured a certain sum per annum, my first years stipend was £72 per annum, £6 per month out of which I paid my mother £2 10 shillings per month, some of rest went on NHI and tax, yes Tax!, what ever was left you could save (now there's a laugh), spend in the ship's slop chest on lemonade or chocolate, (apprentices of any age 16 -21 and older were not allowed alcohol) or get a sub to go ashore and get yourself a woman!!!!!!!! : indentured apprentices did not get paid overtime (cadets did) and 12 to 16 hour days were quite normal in some companies. Navigation lessons were non existent, the main tools of the trade being chipping hammers (including the windy hammer, a machine which the deck crew hated) and paint brushes, as well as bunting and brasso. Somehow we survived and actually stayed at sea, as everything was easy after that!!, or so it seemed when we look back through rose tinted spectacles. But would we do it again, of course we would!

[Des Taff Jenkins]

Hi Ivan.
Not rose tinted glasses, but perhaps nostalgia tinted ones.
Des

[John Arton]

In 1926 my father signed on his first ship, the Tudor star of blue star line, as a deck cadet with the voyage description being "world wide". I was told that he, along with his great friend Henry dare, were amongst the first cadets, as opposed to apprentices, that blue star employed.
Rgds
J.A.

[Ian Adrian Millar]

I thank you all who have responded to my question and I still have some more searching to do. I am certain that my Father served in the British Merchant Navy and also in the Canadian and U.S. Merchant Marine prior to and during WW II and up to the Viet Nam War in 1969. Regarding my Father's indenture papers I only have an old time photo copy of the front of the document and so cannot say if there are any comments on the reverse side. I did find a form from the Register of Seamen listing the ships they had on record for him which I had to obtain in order to get the awards for war service. It listed him as an apprentice while aboard the MARYLYN, ON 161369 From 24 Aug 1939 through Sept 19, 1940. There is a notation "Re-rated Able Bodied Seaman August 1st 1940. His next ship was the GYPSUM QUEEN, ON 147787, he is listed as 3rd Mate 30 June 1941 to 10 September 1941 when the vessel was sunk by enemy action. His next ship was the SERINGA, ON 135957 where he is 3rd Mate from March 9, 1942 through April 11, 1942. Not recorded on this form is his service aboard the CAROLUS, his next ship and on the discharge form from this ship he is shown as 1st Mate May 19, 1942 through July, 6, 1942. There is also a place asking for his No. of R.C.N. R. Commission or Certificate. In this box in number 28881 and the rank of Leut. The next box asks for his number if mate or engineer, No. of Certificate if any. The number written in is 76309. I have no record of my Father having served in the Royal Canadian Naval Reserve, so my next step is to try and find those records. Another question arises and that is would a man serving as an Apprentice go to the level of 3rd Mate is that short a time period or would the commencement of the war have hastened his promotion. Perhaps there are missing documents to try and locate. At any rate again my thanks to all of you who have offered information.

Ian

[Ivan Cloherty]

. It listed him as an apprentice while aboard the MARYLYN, ON 161369 From 24 Aug 1939 through Sept 19, 1940. There is a notation "Re-rated Able Bodied Seaman August 1st 1940. His next ship was the GYPSUM QUEEN, ON 147787, he is listed as 3rd Mate 30 June 1941 to 10 September 1941 when the vessel was sunk by enemy action. His next ship was the SERINGA, ON 135957 where he is 3rd Mate from March 9, 1942 through April 11, 1942. Not recorded on this form is his service aboard the CAROLUS, his next ship and on the discharge form from this ship he is shown as 1st Mate May 19, 1942 through July, 6, 1942. There is also a place asking for his No. of R.C.N. R. Commission or Certificate. In this box in number 28881 and the rank of Leut. The next box asks for his number if mate or engineer, No. of Certificate if any
question arises and that is would a man serving as an Apprentice go to the level of 3rd Mate is that short a time period or would the commencement of the war have hastened his promotion. Perhaps there are missing documents to try and locate. At any rate again my thanks to all of you who have offered information.

Ian

All types of things happened during the war, it may have been possible for your father to act as uncertificated 3/m after serving sometime as an indentured apprentice, as he may have stood watches during his apprentice time with an OOW acting as a lookout, and any OOW worth his salt in that time would have taught him the rudimentary arts of navigation for self survival. Many apprentices took charge of lifeboats in WWII when their vessels were sunk.

My own father was in the MN prior WWII and joined the army on 3rd Sept 1939, he was in the Dunkirk evacuation, and on returning the UK was asked if he would rejoin the MN as a navigator (out of the frying pan into the fire?) as so many MN personnel had been lost in the first 18 months of the war when the submarines had their first happy times.

[Doc Vernon]

I came across this Link while searching ,it may be of some help i dont know?
Worth a look though
Cheers

Military Heritage - Library and Archives Canada


https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discov...er-sheets.aspx


https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discov...roduction.aspx

[Andy Lawson]

From "Disasters at Sea During the Age of Steam - including sailing ships and ships of war lost in action 1824 to 1962" By Charles Hocking, F.L.A.

GYPSUM QUEEN - Gypsum Packet Co.: 1927: Furness S.B. Co.: 3,915 tons: 347.8 x 52.8 x 23: 409 n.h.p.: triple-expansion engines.
The steamship Gypsum Queen, on a voyage from New Orleans and Sydney, N.S. for Glasgow, was torpedoed and sunk by a German Submarine on September 10th, 1941 about 300 miles N.E. of Cape Farewell. Nine of her crew and one gunner were lost.

Corroboration of previous posts.
Andy

[Alan Hill]

As far as I was concerned the most important distinction between cadets and apprentices was that we (cadets) were paid overtime

[j.sabourn]

#19... I beg to differ as regards overtime. I was an apprentice and all that can be said has already been done so. Walter Runcimans did pay their apprentices overtime to the tune of 9d. an hour in 1953 for the first 2 years , and for the next 2 years 1/6d an hour. It was up to the company if they paid or not. I am sitting here with my indentures stuck on the bulkhead to remind me of my humble beginnings , and it also looks like I will have humble endings. I think if I remember the overtime was paid after about a 10 hour day. There was no legislation for this payment. JS.