Certificate of Continuous Discharge query

[Doc Vernon]

Hi Des
The Ship Main that he was on at that time was a small Cargo Vessel of only 715 Ton. Built 1904 old Govan yard
She collided with (The Sultan) off Cromer Knoll 1929 her end !
Cheers

[Paul Manos]

Thank you to everyone for their posts.
I am posting the two relevant pages of my great-uncle's booklet, as requested by several members. I have tried some photo editing to improve the image in response to comments that the text is hard to read. Also, although uncertain as to the size limits on jpeg's on this site, I have increased the file size in the hope this will assist also.

Constantine_CertificateOfContinuousDischarge_pp5-6.jpg

Constantine_CertificateOfContinuousDischarge_pp7-8.jpg

[Paul Manos]

Hello Brenda,
I've posted separately the following page (pp 7-8) along with pp.5-6.
Paul

[Paul Manos]

Thank you, Doc
Very much appreciate the interpretations.
I've uploaded a (hopefully) better copy of the page and the following one, easier to read, with luck.

Might I ask whether a Fireman is the same on every ship at that time? and are we talking about steamers?

I am confused by a separate Discharge Certificate from the SS Main, on a single piece of paper with dates that are at odds with the booklet.
The (one page) Certificate states that my great-uncle was engaged on 4 Nov 1907 and discharged on 9 Jan 1908 at Neath Abbey.
The Booklet. on the other hand, states he was discharged on 14 Dec 1907 at Briton Ferry.

Was it common for discharge papers like these to have conflicting information on them?

And, given that the SS Main was a small ship, and that he was discharged up river at Neath Abbey, is it a safe bet that he was engaged on the river trade perhaps, that took coal from up river down to the docks at Swansea?

[Brenda Shackleton]

Hello Paul,
Well there's a bit of a mystery going on here.....!
Bottom of page 6 great- uncle is in Port Said 14th Dec 1909. Top of page 7 is dated 18th Nov 1907- over 2 years earlier.
Bottom of the same page(7) we are back to Port Said on 14th Dec with the Pro-Consul signing and dating his Discharge book. Can't quite make out the signature Looks like Charles Carrumon (? ) What's occurrin'? !!
Regards
Brenda

[Paul Manos]

Hello Brenda
I don't know if all such booklets are like this one: this is the first I've ever seen. (Quite exciting & a bit nervous handling a 100 year old document that's survived.)
I'm attaching 3 blank pages from further on in the booklet. It looks as if a page concerning itself with the conduct of the seaman is interspersed with the chronological pages of service, hence the jump back in dates from bottom page 6 to top of page 7.

[Doc Vernon]

As far as i can say Yes i would think that a Fireman was the same on each ship in those days , as he was also a Trimmer that one trip looks like it then he would have been a sort of helper to possibly another ?

As for the Entries ,well Human error did step into many of the discharges in those days ,and quite possibly could have been an error made in his Book.
But the pages you have loaded are just one and the same as far as his Book is concerned ,showing his conduct for each Ship he was on.

There is only one that i cannot figure out,and that is the last Entry on page 8 which also has VG (Very Good) but is entry number 7 and on his other page there are only 6 Entries? So that is a puzzle!?? May be i am looking wrongly@?? Looks very much like a Signature with a Stamp of Melbourne 14 Jan 1916 ???

This is puzzling indeed! Aside from the place Stamp ,i am wondering if for some reason that other Document you have (Separate one) in 1908 he was not given a VG Stamp on that and for reasons of his own much later ( Some 8 Years) he went to get his old Book updated ,the possible reason for there not being a Number on the VG Stamp like the others have ??

It is futher a puzzle why there are no more Entries in his Book seeing as you say he was in the Merchant Navy till 1916 ?? Was there another Book? If that is Melbourne did he jump Ship there? A lot to look into i say!

Could we perhaps have his full name and place of birth and Year if possible ,this could get very interesting!

All just pure guessing mind you. LOL The dates you mention for that Ship main is a possible reason that he did two trips on her ,this the one that is not shown in the Book??
Cheers
The last three are just Blank pages which many of us would have had if we did not fill our Book.

I am confused by a separate Discharge Certificate from the SS Main, on a single piece of paper with dates that are at odds with the booklet.

Can you upload this Document as well please!

Cheers

[Paul Manos]

Hello Doc,

I agree, there is mystery regarding the years between 1909 and 1916.

His full name was Prodromos Constantinou Crantas, born 18 July 1887, on the island of Marmara of Propontis, in the Sea of Marmara, 112kms from (then) Constantinople. The Certificate of Continuous Discharge booklet is the earliest documentary evidence I have of him and his life.

The next document of his life (but the first one I discovered) is his Application for Naturalisation as an Australian citizen, dated 27 September 1911, in which he states that he arrived to Australia from Cardiff by a ship of the Orient Line (the name of which he claims to forget) on 15 September 1909.

Now, we can see plainly from the recently found Certificate that this date for arrival to Australia of 15 September 1909 on his Naturalisation application is clearly not possible, because on 9 September 1909 (if his Certificate booklet is to be credited with accuracy) he was aboard the "Tempus" en route to Cardiff back from River Plate, Brazil. (Also, to the best of my knowledge, the Orient Line, which had the contract for the mail to Australia from London, did not use Cardiff as a port. Keen to know if I'm wrong on that.)

It's my view that the date of arrival to Australia that he put on his Naturalisation application was a fabrication in order to comply with the Naturalisation Act 1903 that required two years residency in Australia prior to application.

My guess is that he came out to Australia on a freighter from Port Said (his most likely port of embarkation after his discharge from the "Treneglos" in Port Said in December 1909 and jumped ship on arrival. If that is correct, he did so as a seaman rather than as passenger. There are several factors in support of this theory: (1) his name does not appear in the Australian Archives (NAA) on any passenger ships arriving to Australia in 1909 or 1910; (2) records of crew members on freighter ships to Australia at that time in Australian shipping history are thin; and (3) anecdotally, in the tales of migration told by my parents' generation, Australia was regarded as an easy country to skip authorities on arrival (I count 3 family ancestors who admitted jumping ship between 1918 - 1930) and for whom there is no documentary record of arrival to be found in the Australian or State governments' archives.

His Naturalisation application includes a report from the local Police who confirm a 6month residency at the mining and shipping town of Port Pirie from May to October 1911, where he apparently traded his fireman experience on ships for a fireman on land, possibly at the local smelter (although the BHP Smelter Archives can find no record of his employment).

(Digression: here research runs into how foreigners were regarded in the British Whites-only early Australia; although his Naturalisation application gives his place of residency by street name in the town of Port Pirie, a search of the town's archives rates ledgers gives the full name of all British subject residents, but in the case of non-British persons, the rates ledger entries are either "Greek" or "Italian" or "foreigners" with no person's actual name recorded.)

There follows a gap of 5 years until his Certificate booklet records him joining a local ship on the interstate trade route, from Adelaide to Melbourne, 30 November 1915 to 14 January 1916. (In the early days of the colony and young nation, transportation by ship was the major method for goods & people between the coastal capital cities.)

My guess is that he looked for work on land but kept hold of his seaman's book in case there was a need to find employment at sea again.

The singular one page Discharge Certificate from the SS "Main" in January 1908 is attached. It clouds matters even more by giving his date of birth as 1885 instead of 1887, and his place of birth as Spain instead of Ottoman territory (as Asia Minor was then prior to WW1). I can't offer even a guess for this strangeness.

[Doc Vernon]

Hi Paul
Well i must say that it is all very intriguing and all your points are very well pointed out. I must agree with most if not all of what you post.
You seem to have most all covered , so i was correct about the Australia part ,thats why i wanted the name etc,but again you have looked at the NAA and come up blank.
There is not then much more to all this ,but of course i will keep my Eyes peeled,and if anything new comes to llight i will indeed let you know.
Thank you for the post and all the info,makes a very interesting case.
Cheers

[Paul Manos]

Hi Doc

Thanks for your encouragement. I'm very grateful for this site; already I can see details which can be useful, like a large jig-saw puzzle.

There is one question I'd like some guidance on: the ship that my great-uncle boarded (I believe in Port Said) to come to Australia - all I know is the rough time frame it voyaged here. Does a freighter have to lodge crew lists in every port it visits, and who in port usually receives that list? And is it likely he could get on a ship without being recorded in the ship's official papers? Or is that sort of thing the stuff of novels and movies?