Displaced Persons

[william wallace]

Remember in the late 60's sailing with several Latvians and Estonians who was classed as Displaced or Stateless Persons. They were always subject to close attention when any Immigration people came onboard at foreign ports. They never went ashore in a foreign port and only went ashore in the UK for 48 hour periods. Seemed to spend most of their time onboard and tended to stay away from the rest of the crowd. Some could not speak much English and little was know about them apart from their name.
Thinking back they were a rather isolated bunch of people who never seemed to communicate.

Does anyone know what their actual situation was at that time?

Thanks

PS One of them went mad on the Cedric. Had to be tied down in the Sick Bay for a week or so and offloaded at an unsceduled stop Freemantle

[j.sabourn]

Remember sailing with 2 or 3 Estonians in 1954, the carpenter was Estonian, and one of Latvians was christened Savvy, as always said when talking to you, You Savvy. Coming back in Cuba to ship via Taxi with the chippy, who on showing passes at the gate said something to one of the guards for which he received a rifle butt to his head through the taxi"s window. took him back to ship where we doctored him up a bit and nothing was ever said. They all signed on in Cardiff and I always thought they were permanent residents there. However any Russian ships appearing in port and you never saw any of them on deck. The same as had a Polish 2nd Engineer on board and if going to Murmansk or any other Russian port had to land him ashore usually in Norway and pick him up on the way back. As said I always thought they were domiciled in the UK. Cheers JWS

[Keith Tindell]

I also sailed with Latvians and quite a few Poles, usually heavy drinkers, but then weren't we all?. But there was always a mysterious air about them, and mainly kept to themselves and did not take many shore runs, kt

[william wallace]

Remember that if the ship was going to Russia, the Latvians and Estonians would be taken off and wait on the return of the ship. They were all based in the Cardiff area but did long trips onboard. One or two years was not unusual and they did not seem to have any close family in the UK. A bit of a mystery for a young lad of 17.

[j.sabourn]

I have a neighbour about 5 houses along the street. He was at one time Estonian I believe or if not is ex Latvian. Always wants to talk to me but he is stone deaf, his wife half his size tries to translate the conversation to us both, but she is Singapore Chinese and only makes matters worse. Have been out with them a few times usually to Chinese restaurants which his wife seems to always know the owners so she usually picks the banquet out for us. From what I can gather he got out of Latvia/Estonia in the late fourties by fishing boat. Landed in NE England and as was taken in by a family. Joined the RAF and got his wings and got up to Flight Lieutenant, then was involved in a crash and was invalided out stone deaf apart from other injuries. Came out East supposedly to join a monastery, decided to see Australia first and on the ship coming down to Sydney met his now wife and lost all ambition to live a sedentry life style. He was at one time picked for an English running team for the Olympic games, when the games were not the big business they are today and were all amateurs. Poor old bloke is near the end of his days now, but giving the chance would be up their running in the lead no doubt. Cheers JWS

[happy daze john in oz]

Sailed with one from Poland as an officers steward. Good worker but not much fun to be with.

[Ivan Cloherty]

Sailed with one from Poland as an officers steward. Good worker but not much fun to be with.

Don't suppose they had much to laugh about, lost their family, lost their homes, lost their country and could never go back, and never knowing what the world was going to throw at you next, probably dreading being in port with a Soviet ship which were full of political commissars in those days and would have no hesitation in kidnapping them and returning them to some Gulag in the Motherland on some trumped up charge, must have been one hell of a frightening existence especially have survived a war torn country and some camp in which few survived, I suppose it was inherent in them not to trust anybody and not talk to anyone if you're not sure who you are talking to, althpugh we experienced war, we were lucky compared to some

[John Arton]

On the white Beaver ships in C.P. there was a Latvian bosun who lived in London and if I recall correctly when not sailing, would be part of the shore gang standing by ships in port. We also had a Spanish bosun Pablo who had lived in London for years. Both of them must have been naturalised as I cannot recall any problems with immigration for either of them.
When I was at school, in my class one of the girls I lusted after had a Polish surname. Her father had escaped from Poland during WW2, him being a pilot in the Polish air force. He joined the RAF in its Polish squadron and fought in the Battle of Britain.
An absolutely fascinating fellow, apart from having a daughter I lusted after, in later years I got to know him quite well and he had some fascinating stories about Poland and his career in the RAF. They lived nearby and his only source of income appeared to come from fees he charged to boat owners who stored their yachts in two huge barns he owned. He also had a number of vintage cars he was restoring but as they neared completion he would lose interest in them and abandon the restoration with only things like the seats to fit having restored their bodywork and mechanical workings. He was one of those guys who if you needed a left handed widget or some other peculiar and rare item, you could always guarantee he had one somewhere in his vast bins of odd items. On one occasion I went up to see him to see if he had an item I required for a job I was doing and found him fitting pannier's to a Russian motorcycle and sidecar combination. Asking him what he was doing with such a piece of gear he told me he and his wife were going on a continental touring holiday in it. His wife thought they were going to the South of France but he said he was going back to Poland (he had not told her of his plans). At that time Poland was till behind the iron curtain so I asked him if he had got visas or permission to there and he said no but he knew ways of getting across the border without going through passport or immigration and the reason he had brought the Russian motorcycle was that in the event it broke down, parts for it should be easily available in the part of Poland he intended to visit, it being near the Russian borders.
He actually did make it into Poland and the bike did brake down but he had to cobble it together with odd bits as no spares were available where they were.
rgds
JA

[Robert T. Bush]

Met with some good displaced persons at an early age, while at presea school at Southampton there were Polish boys, many Belgians, and one Greek, a shipowner's son. Our seamanship instructor was Bosun Khulman the Dutch Bosun from the Arandora Star, a real Seaman.

Later as Master, a Chief Engineer was a big Slav who lost his parents during WW2 he had been an Engineer cadet in Yugoslavia, was interned in a UNRA camp at Rimini and picked out by a Santo Domingan naval officer to join their navy. On a voyage to Canada he deserted and made his way to the US where he was employed by National Bulk Carriers. Multi lingual, very hardworking and competent he became a friend.

[Dennis Billaney]

Hope you don’t mind me digging up and using this old thread from 2016. But before posting or while doing some research and after finding this, I thought it might make more sense to post my questions here and make sure any (potentially) additional information is collected in one and the place.

For those of you who might have read or remember some of previous posts or the “main” reasons I ever joined this forum, is about my grandad’s WW2 service.

One of the vessels, probably the one which was the most important one to him and where he saw the longest period of “action”, was the vessel called SS Kalev, which was originally or at the time the war broke out, an Estonian vessel. Like many other vessels, together with their crews, the SS Kalev was requisitioned by MOWT and from then on belonged to the fleet of the British Merchant Navy.

It was my grandad’s third and final vessel, which he boarded and joined the crew in December 1941, where he remained until his final discharge in June 1945.

I have been able to establish, that while the main type of duty or voyage during his time were coastal runs, up and down the Channel, as well as all around the “Island”, the SS Kalev was also involved in several other types of convoys.
Prior to his time, the SS Kalev had been doing convoy trips as early as Nov 1939 (according to convoyweb archive data), incl Norwegian waters, Iceland and I think they even did some Atlantic trips to North America.

Regarding the period grandad served on the Kalev, I found an entry in his personal, handwritten memoirs, which to me seems to be of interest, related to this thread or topic, which has to do about a near mutiny situation, where the crew which were 99% Estonian, except grandad, loaded cargo and then sailed to a holding or staging area in Icelandic waters. When they learned that they were to join an arctic convoy run to Murmansk, the entire crew refused and finally, without any further consequences, were re-routed back to the UK, where they offloaded the cargo destined for Russia and went on with “business as usual”. Obviously, this had to do with them fearing the danger they faced, if they’d end up in Russia.

Another thing I consider more than extraordinary, given the overall importance and of its historic proportions, was the fact that they took part in Operation Neptune and sailed among the initial wave during the night of the 5th of June 1944, anchoring offshore when the Naval bombardment was launch, “hearing how the big guns fired out at sea and shell after shell whizzing overhead, followed by enormous explosions”. After waiting all day long out at sea, they were finally ordered to move forward until running aground, where they again spent the 7th and the 8th of June like sitting ducks, offloading the first supplies at Omaha beach. They continued with Normandy runs and were even the first vessel to sail up the Cean canal, which at that point hadn’t even been checked or cleared of mines!

You all know better than me, how dearly the MN services, efforts and most crucially, the sacrifices made, have been and still continue to be neglected (but not yet entirely forgotten…). Obviously, the likelihood of remembering, let alone honoring any of the foreign nationality holders for their services, is as good as near zero. At least as long as even native RMN vets aren’t rewarded, or for that matter, the entire branch isn’t properly recognized for its vital contributions.

However, the point I wanted to make, is that it is an undisputable and undeniable fact, that individuals, like those Estonian sailors who went to war together with my grandad, deserve the entire and same recognition and military decorations, like any other member who served among the Allied Forces.
I have no clue how many men, or in this case, Estonians, served on the SS Kalev from 1939 until 1945. I also don’t know, but I think it might be realistic to assume, that some of those who belonged to the original crew, might have even paid the ultimate price. Grandad never spoke about casualties, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t suffer any losses!

Over the 20+ years since my grandad passed away and I’ve been doing my research, I’ve often wondered about what had happened or where does mates he spent over 3 years together at war with, ended up. Probably, by now, they’ve all gone or would be very, very old!

I’ve tried several times to search for info or clues about his crew or their fate, as well as that of many other Estonians who had a similar destiny.
Yet, I’ve never been able to find anything conclusive or something which was/is related to such sort of a community.

I do understand that we’re speaking of a tiny country and therefore, a rather small group of individuals, when it comes to those type of Estonian people.

I’ve also spent some time to get my head around the (complicated) history and time that Estonia went through during those years, first being invaded by the Russians, then liberated (unless you were a Jew or other Subhuman) and occupied by the Germans, until “liberated” again and occupied once more by the Red Army, then Soviet era etc etc until NATO member, as of today.

Among other things I found on the net, the below is what I found most interesting:

(Quote: copy paste from http://www.historicaltextarchive.org...read&artid=383 )

When Estonia was proclaimed a Soviet Republic (SSR), the crews of 42 Estonian ships in foreign waters refused to return to their homeland (about 40% of the pre-war Estonian fleet). These ships were requisitioned by the British powers and were used in Atlantic convoys. During the war, approximately 1000 Estonian seamen served in the British merchant marine, 200 of them as officers. A small number of Estonians served in the Royal Air Force, in the British Army and in the US Army, altogether no more than two hundred.

I couldn’t find out where the Author got his information from, but I simply took the number “42 Estonian ships & 1000 Estonian seamen who served in the RMN”

Based on all the above, the questions I wanted to ask and hoped that since this thread was first started in 2016, maybe some more information popped up, which hasn’t been mentioned here yet.

Anyway, I simply wonder if anyone knows or has any more information about what happened with those Estonians who served in the MN, after the war was over. Obviously, they had no place to go home too, at least not for a very long time anyway. As they were a small minority, yet must have been well known, documented and tracked in records by the relevant authorities, I would assume, the government would have somehow organized things for them to cope with the post war period and get settled for the time being. Maybe some sort of Estonian exile community or care system to facilitate their immediate livelihoods, right after the war. Who knows…

Perhaps there is some sort of nowadays, second/third generation community?

If anyone has some sort of information related to the outcome or other details regarding those WW2 Estonian sailors, please share it here!

Cheers