Seamen's Missions

[Pete Leonard (Bruno)]

Thanks for the mention Alf. In fact there is quite a bit of info.on Google about Aggie. Some would say that she was a bit misguided in her mission, but I am sure that she managed to keep a few matelots away from the fleshpots.
Cheers
Pete

[Patricia Hosie]

Hello Bruno,

Thank you very much for your response.

Agnes Weston's book was one of the first books I came across and is indeed, most worthy of mention. I have found all the information from this forum, books, newspaper articles and mission records all extremely useful but there is still a dearth of information concerning how successful the Missions actually were because the opposing information is not terribly forthcoming about visits to disreputable areas. I completely understand the reluctance but I truly am only interested in seeking a balanced viewpoint. Part of the dissertation concerns women's education and choices so I want to gain a male perspective on their visits to these areas.

Best wishes,

Patricia

[Patricia Hosie]

Hello Gordon,

Thank you for your very useful reply but the statement you make that anecdotes of runs ashore are best not repeated are exactly what I'm asking. As for delicate female ears, I have mentioned using the private message if the story is a little risque. I understand what you are saying but the purpose of the question is purely academic and as part of my studies I have read much that might be considered 'not for delicate female ears'. I am frequently 'shocked' but that is because I have lived in a kind of respectable bubble that doesn't reflect the real world so I'm anxious to know and understand the social, political and economic reasons that maintain prostitution. This includes how successful the Seamen's Missions were at keeping the sailors away from those areas.

I do appreciate the delicacy of what I'm asking but hope that my request is understood in the manner it is intended.

Kind regards,

Patricia

[Ivan Cloherty]

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Hi Patricia

I dothink the guys are embarrassed about revealing their stories, but the era you are talking about has long gone so they should not be,wives and girl friends are more understanding than they think. In my post #4, I pointed out there are a lot of reasons why men resorted to prostitutes. A lot of these women were very exotic looking and lets face it during the war and the immediate post war years when many of us were used to dull, dark, "servicable" clothing only obtained by clothing coupons, the women in sunnier climes wearing brightly coloured clothes, and so much less of them! were very tempting. For a lot of us younger ones it was our first introduction to the delights that Adam had experienced so long before, and it was a strong willed man who would not be entranced by these dusky skinned maidens with their long dark hair, flashing dark eyes, voluptious figures and swaying hips (some of my contempories reading this are now having heart attacks).

Sometimes it was a game for the older seamen to get the younger ones to "lose their cherry" as it was known, between losing your cherry and a visit to the padre, I'm afraid was no contest, the padre got used to coming second. On your first experience losing your cherry was usually free as well, so that made it more attractive, and if you were fortunate to look very young, lets face it lots of us were only 16 when we went to sea and most of us looked younger, you could lose your cherry in every port visited on that run! If you were a boy would you have gone to the Mission?

You will find that many of our experiences were found in the then poorer countries of the west Indies, south America, south Africa, Singapore, Hong Kong, seamens wages wouldn't run to USA prices!, also women, who were not prositutes in the Australasian countries where there was a shortage of men in the post war years were glad of company and a little bit of comforting. For a lot of these women in the poorer countries mentioned it was their only source of income. Some south American men were not known for their fidelity and their wives and children were left to fend for themselves, unless of course their husbands were their pimps, which they were in many cases. "Eh meeester, you wanna sleeep with my seeester" was unfortunately true in a lot of cases, even if we didn't know it at the time.

Yes the Missions were a source of refuge for some, but were they an influence in stopping the majority proceeding beyond the Mission, the answer has to be no, but one soul saved etc etc

If you are looking for "actual" personal experiences then some may be reluctant to tread that path, but give it time, it only needs one then the flood gates will open, was it Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers who sang "Anything you can do I can do better" and memories have a way of inflating experiences, pardon the pun.

In one of your earlier posts you mentioned Victorian double standards, I'm afraid you lost me there, perhaps you could elucidate on that so that we can hopefully respond

Kind regards

Ivan

[Pete Leonard (Bruno)]

Hello Patricia, I think that Gordon's post just about sums up the attitude of seamen in general to The Flying Angels. He is obviously drawing from his experience at sea some years ago as I would. It was a whole different picture then, with the red duster prevalent in every port in the world. If you asked me then were the missions successful I would have been very doubtful. I certainly do not think that much revenue came from the seamen who used them. The reason for this being that most men when they hit port with money in their pockets would walk past the mission and head for the fleshpots. After a day or so when the money ran out they might creep ashore for tea and tabnabs in the mission. So unless the staff were able to redeem the sinner at this stage the message had not got through. The situation today is completely different, with so few British seamen crewing a very depleted fleet. Another factor being time spent in port. In those days,depending on your cargo, you could be up to a fortnight or more in port. Today with the emphasis on rapid turnaround with container ships you are lucky if you get 24 hours in port,and if you are unlucky enough to be kept on watch you don't get ashore at all. So Patricia it is all a matter of supply and demand.
Best wishes
Pete

[Patricia Hosie]

Hi Ivan,

I'm very much in your debt. This is exactly what I'm looking for as it demonstrates the male view I obviously cannot know other than from a male.

The double standards I refer to are simply that it was OK for males to 'sow wild oats' or any other term you wish to use, but if a female lost her virtue, (or was even thought to have lost her virtue) then she was ostracized by society. Lots of Victorian literature focuses on this aspect of society and it is taken up by feminists from earlier centuries. It reflects the idea that prostitution was a necessary social evil in order to keep respectable women respectable. However, although I intend to mention the double standard, I'm much more interested in the link between class, capitalism, education and poverty that leaves some women without a choice that you have highlighted in your post. So that provides me with exactly the evidence and viewpoint from a male perspective that I'm looking for.

Once again, thank you very much and I hope your post leads to a few more stories. With any luck I shall have the material for a book, let alone a dissertation!

I would also like to reiterate that the information will be written up completely anonymously.

Kindest regards,
Patricia

[alf corbyn]

hi patricia. in my experience, seamen were not all that religeous so the missions definately came second. once the money ran out then we went to the mission, but only for the free food and perhaps to try and enviegle a mission girl to take the place of a prostitute. i would not think the mission would have much luck unless the lad was already religeious. yes they were a good thing but mostly for some where to go when broke. alf

[Captain Kong]

I remember being in Genoa, Italy in 1962. Around six of us were sat in a bar when a Lady propositioned us for a `quicky`. Some of the lads were taking the micky out of her, she started to weep and then shout at us, she had three children to feed and if she had no money the children went hungry, There was no Benefits system in Italy at that time, she had to sell herself to survive.
I think we were all a little shocked, and then realised what it was all about, These Ladies were hard working girls, not in it for the pleaure but for survival.
We had a tarporlin muster, [collection ], and raised quite a lot of money and gave it to her. She was very grateful for the money and didnt have to sell herself that night.
Cant remember if we went to the Mission that night, but if we had done that poor Lady would not have had the collection money to feed her kids.

[Michael Lawrence]

Hi Kong. remember Genoa and loved my 2 times there. The Via Lucia which was called the 'dirty mile' presumably because of the ladies for hire. Do you remember the United Services Club it was in an old palazzo, very chic and the booze was reasonable. We were there one time on the 'Surrey' of NZ. Shipping Co., (Federal Line just in case someone corrects me) and part of the USA fleet was in ,was it the sixth or the seventh? Remember their carrier was the Rooservelt. We had a few of their lads on by telling them we were off H.M.S. Mudlark a submarine and were due to take part in exercises to sink the carrier. According to their lads there was no way we're get closer enough to carry out the attack. We told 'em that we had a new weapon where we laid on the seabed and sent up a guided rocket which if it was for real would land on their flight deck and poof, end of carrier. One of the 'gobs' said to his mates, 'I read about this in one of our new technical mags.,'

Strange that a couple of years later those missiles were a fact.

I remember I met a very lovely Jewish girl on the Via Lucia --- but thats another story and top secret.

[Ivan Cloherty]

I remember I met a very lovely Jewish girl on the Via Lucia --- but thats another story and top secret.

Go on Michael, do tell, there are no secrets between friends and think of how much pleasure you would bring to Patricia and her research!

Ivan