William Joseph or Joseph William Workman

[Den Bannister]

Good morning and Happy Christmas,

I am researching the men listed on the Slimbridge War Memorial in Gloucestershire and I am looking for details of William Joseph or Joseph William (he called himself by both names) Workman who is said to have died at Dunkirk. We have his Merchant Navy record card for 1929, his picture and his WW1 service record. Unfortunately all we have about his death is a note saying he died at Dunkirk. We can find no death certificate for that time that might be his and he is not listed on the Commonwealth War Graves list either. What I can tell you is he was a ship's steward. His 1929 record card was stamped M. M. Office Ardrossan 16 Dec 1929. His ship is not shown and of course this was over 10 years before he died. We have no reason to think he did not die at Dunkirk because someone must have had confirmation before his name was added to the War Memorial. I have attached the two record cards we have found.

If anyone can help us with sources of information we would be most grateful.

Den Bannister

[Ron B Manderson]

Welcome to the site Den
Enjoy
Ron the batcave

[Hugh]

Hello Den and welcome - Happy Christmas.

It would appear that he signed on the tanker SAN UBALDO 27th February 1940. As the Fourth Register of Seamen ends in 1940, you would need to check the Fifth Register to see if he continued to serve post that date.
I can give you details later of the file you need to check at The National Archives Kew. I cannot see a death at sea for him.

Certainly SAN UBALDO was at Boulogne on 27th April 1940, Dunkirk on May 7th, departed Dunkirk, May 9th for Southampton.

Regards
Hugh

[Den Bannister]

High. That's brilliant, thanks. Please let me know how you found out so quickly and what I need to do next.

Best wishes for the season

Den

[Den Bannister]

Hugh. I followed a link to findmypast which confirms that Joseph joined the Umbaldo on 27 February 1940. That is followed by the numbers 145223. I assume that is another ship?? Or is that the number for the Umbaldo? I am being summoned to Xmas dinner now so I had better leave it until tomorrow.

Thanks again for your help.

Den

[Doc Vernon]

145223

1145223
1921
SAN UBALDO Shell tanker 'San Ubaldo' | Helderline.nl
*
1921
1955 scrapped
5,999


V1921
#939
Eagle Oil Tpt Co Ltd
GBR London Official Nos: 145218 Fred Everard, 145221 San Tiburcio, 145222 Roam, 145223 San Ubaldo,... | The National Archives

Other Numbers on the Cert showing,
145182

1145182
1921
SAN TEODORO Shell tanker 'San Teodoro' | Helderline.nl
*
1921
1935 scrapped
6,137


V1921
#937
Eagle Oil Tpt Co Ltd
GBR London

Official Nos: 145179 Wild Rose, 145182 San Teodoro, 145183 Ethylene, 145184 San... | The National Archives




135204

1135204
1913
W.I.RADCLIFFE CLARISSA RADCLIFFE(3)1913-17 1913 6042 Craig, Taylor, Stockton Renamed W I RADCLIFFE (Not sure if this is the same but could well be?) Dates seem OK

Official No. 135174 Eboe, 135179 San Eduardo, 135192 Corton, 135204 W I Radcliffe,... | The National Archives

W I Radcliff.jpg

6042
1917
V1913
#153
Wynnstay SS Co Ltd
GBR London

Just of interest

In 1919 Eagle Oil and Royal Dutch Shell entered into an agreement whereby the latter took over management of the company. The Mexican Government nationalised the assets of Eagle Oil in Mexico and seized the San Ricardo, transferring her to Mexican registry.
In 1939 the Eagle fleet consisted of twenty seven ocean going ships, of which fifteen were lost during World War II. Eagle Oil was acquired outright in 1959 by the Shell Group and the fleet was integrated into the Shell fleet. In 1960 the Eagle funnel colours were replaced by those of Shell Tankers Ltd.

[Hugh]

In the absence of any further information, you need now to go to the Fifth Register of Seamen (1941-1972) as these records begin January 1941. If he has a file then you will be able to trace any service from January 1941. If nothing then it would suggest he did not serve beyond 1940. There is no death recorded for him on SAN UBALDO so still a bit of work to do yet.

You need to obtain his CRS 10 which, if there is one for him, will be held at Kew in piece BT 382/2002
This file is best obtained by visit or via a researcher as difficult and expensive to obtain using the Kew research service. The file consists of the service records in surname block order so contains up to 60 other names.
Regards
Hugh

[Den Bannister]

Good morning Hugh,

When I posted my first post yesterday I didn't really expect to hear from anyone so I am absolutely delighted with all the help you gave me in tracking down Joseph. If I have understood everything you have sent me correctly I believe this is where we are now:

Joseph (let's call him that as his first names seem to be interchangeable) was a crew member on the Umbaldo when she sailed from Halifax. She docked in Boulogne, Dunkirk and finally Southampton on 9 May. You said there was no record of him being lost at sea. Can you tell me how you have confirmed this so I don't spend time on that possibility? It is therefore possible he left the ship in any of those ports to either join in the evacuation or go ashore. I should add at this stage that Joseph may have been a very frightened man by now. He had joined the 5th Gloucestershire's at the start of WW1 having previously been a ship's steward. He saw service in the Dardanelles where he contracted trench foot and para typhoid. Evacuated to Salonica he was blown up and buried in a raid and suffered shell shock (PTSD in today's language). He was discharged from the Army after the war and was given a gratuity, not a pension, which would have been the norm. Given his experiences before WW2 it would have been quite understandable for him to try to avoid the military and conflict of any kind and therefore it seems unlikely, although not impossible, that he would have volunteered to join in the evacuation.

I follow your reasoning on checking the 5th Register but I would not expect to find him there given that we are told he died at Dunkirk and the Register starts long after that. Unfortunately, his absence, if it is an absence, doesn't help explain what happened to him. As an ex RAF brat this is my first time in researching the Merchant Navy so please accept my apologies for any naive questions.

At the nub of all this is that we can't find a death certificate for him. This is most unusual and it leads me to thinking he may have died in France during the turbulent retreat. If he had left the ship's company in either Boulogne or Dunkirk and gone ashore, having said he was not coming back to the ship, would there have been a record of that? Let's say he did, and died ashore as effectively a civilian, who would have known where he went or recorded his death? Similarly, if he joined one of the small ships in Southampton I doubt if there would have been any record of this and if the ship was sunk, who would know? What skills could a ship's steward who suffered from PTSD add to a crew? Still, someone after the war had his name added to the names of the men on our War Memorial.

We only have five men from the village who lost their lives in WW2 and Joseph is just one of those stories we are researching but he is by far the most unusual and interesting. I saw from one of your links that there were three men who served on the Umbaldo in 1939 and in one case 1939-1940 so I have written to all of them.

If there are errors in my deductions or other steps I should take please let me know, and once again, many thanks for your help.

Best wishes,

Den Bannister

[Louis the fly]

He must have been in the M.N. for many years. On one card he is 2nd steward , on the other Chief Steward , it takes some time to reach these positions.
His discharge book was full and he was waiting for a replacement. At the time long voyages were the norm , it would take years to fill up a book with discharges.
It looks like his father was from Glasgow.

[Ivan Cloherty]

Den

Stewards like everyone else on board are a small essential cog in a big machine, all essential for the smooth running of the ship, stewards duties besides serving food in the officers saloon would entail cleaning cabins, assisting in storing the vessel, so that those with other duties could carry out their duties. Also PTSD wasn't recognised as an illness in those days, although other physical attributes may have prevented him from rejoining the military and yet he may have felt that he needed to contribute and joining the MN was one way of doing it, boys/men served on ships in WWII aged from 14/75 and not all were physically fit, and believe me it wasn't a way of avoiding the front line, 15,000 MN personnel lost their lives before a single bomb was dropped on London.

In the evacuation of Dunkirk (and other areas) he would not officially have been allowed to go ashore and the object of the exercise was get in-get out, and doubt he would have have had the opportunity to go ashore as most ships were anchored offshore and evacuees/troops ferried out to them, couldn't risk getting a ship trapped alongside and later becoming an asset to the enemy. It is highly unlikely that he joined a smaller ship in Southampton without it being recorded somewhere and if he had left a ship either voluntarily or involuntarily it would have been recorded in the ship's log, but that log may not have survived. Dunkirk was a turbulent time and answers will not be found to all questions, as is common with a lot of maritime tragedies things are not straightforward and no death certificates are issued but only a notice at the Coroners office stating 'Missing at sea, presumed drowned' where there is no body a death certificate cannot be issued