Merchant Navy WWII

[Pat Fowles]

Hi ...Ages since I've posted on here but not given up my search. National Archives says that if someone was an apprentice or temporarily employed on a MN ship during WWII they may not have been issued with a discharge 'A' Number or a British Seamans identity card. My query is... if they didn't have any documentation how did they prove they were entitled to medals?

Thank you

[j.sabourn]

In my period 1952 to 2002 Apprentices did have documentation in the form of a discharge book , however no discharges were inserted in such , but as a form of back up if required his Indentures seatime and name of ship was on them. If he was temporary employee on the vessel there would still be a mention of such in the Articles of Agreement together with all his particulars . Also his name and position on the ship would be on all crew lists , boat and fire drill designation .The only person or persons who were not known on the ship were yet to be discovered stowaways . JS

Some people still carry the idea that a cadet and an apprentice are the same thing , as they may be an apprentice and are called a cadet for various reasons , but they are two totally different entities as well as regards job description , to put it bluntly an apprentice is in serfdom for 4 years. A cadet signs on and off with the crew and can seek employment with other ships and companies , he is a free agent when off Articles also being paid more appropriately as necessary. JS

[Hugh]

if they didn't have any documentation how did they prove they were entitled to medals?

Hello again Pat,
Do you mean how did they [the seaman] prove it or how do you [the researcher] prove it?

As John states even if he did not have a Dis.A he would still be entered on the relevant ship's crew agreements but obviously you would need to know the name of the ship. Not so much of a problem back then but maybe trying to prove it today may be more of a problem. The other thing to bear in mind is when he finished his indentures he was given a Dis.A number and that would help in the trace. Known ships from his service records could also be used by backtracking through crew agreements.

Regards
Hugh

[Ivan Cloherty]

Hello again Pat,
The other thing to bear in mind is when he finished his indentures he was given a Dis.A number and that would help in the trace.
Hugh

Not often, if ever, I had to question you Hugh, But you got your Discharge Book and Seaman's Identity card along with or even before your indentures were issued and certainly before joining your first ship, but no entries were made in it until you had completed your indenture period. If you completed your indentures whilst at sea you were usually promoted and signed on as Quartermaster from the day of completion. unless you had taken an EDH certificate whilst performing your indentures, then you were signed on as an EDH

[Hugh]

Not often, if ever, I had to question you Hugh, But you got your Discharge Book and Seaman's Identity card along with or even before your indentures were issued and certainly before joining your first ship, but no entries were made in it until you had completed your indenture period. If you completed your indentures whilst at sea you were usually promoted and signed on as Quartermaster from the day of completion. unless you had taken an EDH certificate whilst performing your indentures, then you were signed on as an EDH

Hi Ivan,
No worries, happy to discuss my understanding with you anytime especially given your many years experience which is something the site has to be grateful for. Maybe I was not clear.

I never mentioned his BSIC or Dis.A book but I did mention his Dis.A number. Maybe there was ambiguity in me using the term Dis.A earlier without the "number". He may have had a book but he would not be given a Dis.A number until he finished his apprenticeship. I certainly agree if he finished his apprenticeship while still at sea he would be signed on as AB.

Having researched many apprentices, I have yet to see one given a number until he was finished his course. The National Archives in Pat's opening post are correct in that he wasn't given a Dis.A number while still undergoing an apprenticeship.

Regards
Hugh

[Ivan Cloherty]

Hugh, I am looking at my Green Identity card dated 30 July 1954 with my photograph and me holding a board (like someone at her Majesty's Pleasure) with the number R611450 on it, all my fingerprints are also in the card. My Dis A, a renewal was issued in 1958, the original issued in 1954 was lost by PSNC who retained apprentices Dis A ashore in their office. My Identity card was endorsed with a 1958 stamp on section 7 as being confirmed as appropriate to my Renewal Dis A even though they had different photographs. My renewal Dis A had a hand written R611450 on it, the original had the number endorsed, as did my fathers R96096, his continuation book the number was also hand written with R96096

So I can only speak from my personal experience that an indentured apprentice was issued a Dis A number upon joining the MN. I did not have a book or I D card for my time on trawlers, presumably as trawlers normally sailed to and from their home ports, although on my first trip we did dock in Seydisfjorden in Iceland to land a sick crew member, I remember it well, as I inherited his bunk, prior to that I was sleeping under the messroom table

[Hugh]

So I can only speak from my personal experience that an indentured apprentice was issued a Dis A number upon joining the MN.

No worries Ivan, who am I to say you or anyone else didn't get a Dis.A before completing your apprenticeship. However, an Apprentice as well as all those under 18 years of age had to be written separately into the Articles and you never see a Dis.A for the apprentice. Also, I attach a CR1 card which shows the reason why no Dis.A was produced for this particular apprentice [I have more cards like these] and the reason given was the seaman was an indentured apprentice to the Hall Line. I cannot say what the policy was in the late 50's though as my interest is mainly the war years.

Discussion is good though and any further information on the subject I would be very interested to see - appreciate your input on the subject.

Regards
Hugh

[Doc Vernon]

Hi Pat
I know that you have had lots of help on this , but just to get some sanity into this can we have exactly who it is you are researching, as seems to be a few Threads on this!?
I am to say the least a bit confused!

Re: WW11 Merchant Navy

Apologies for this being so confusing ( Cyber Asprin on it's way for your headache Hugh) ....you can see why we've been looking for over eight years! K M Macaulay is my Dad (M is for Manoel) (Macaulay was his Mother's maiden name). We've looked for all the different spellings, combinations etc possible and still can't find anything for WW11 or MN in WW11.

So to keep us all sane LOL can you now just verify who and what you are after!Name or Names , Places and Dates of Birth etc
Thank You

[j.sabourn]

Every apprentice had a discharge book on joining his first ship the same as every other seaman. I must be one of the many thousands who does have a discharge in my book the very first one as it is , was put in by mistake of the master . I have 3 books all crammed full over nigh on 50 years same number throughout .To go to sea on a fg vessel you would need a passport otherwise , I doubt any immigration officer would allow you ashore otherwise without proof of identity. Maybe the master when he signed me off after my first trip was under the mistaken mishaprehension I was a cadet ??!! Anyhow he let me go home for two days good on him , it was over two years before I got home again and this was only because I had a change of Ships to the company’s orders , it was like going to the Queen Mary to me. JS

[happy daze john in oz]

Ivan, you speak of a Green book.
Was that the same is the Semans Red identity one we were issued with?
Or mabye to do with color blindness maybe??