Deck Officers' sextants

[Potaro]

I sailed with Royal Mail and the Deck Officers had their own sextants. Was this the case in Houlders please? I am reading the autobiography of a Houlders' Mate and he records that he sold his sextant to pay off debts then signed on FG Articles as Second Officer. Did the Company provide a sextant for use on the bridge? Otherwise how did he take his noon sights?

[Captain Kong]

The ships I sailed on everyone had there own [except me] but there was one off the Company.
Most of the posers who had their own had bought the German `Plaths` and they strongly objected to anyone who touched theirs. I just used the first one I found in the wheelhouse.
Why should I buy a navigation instrument to navigate the companies ship. Would they want me to buy a DF, a Decca Navigator or Radar??

[Gulliver]

As a cadet,it was useful when you were on leave or at college studying for your tickets to have your own sextant to practice and become familiar with.Accordingly most of us 'impoverished' cadets usually bought a good secondhand one-even those were hellishly expensive,a good three or four months wages.
I took mine away to sea for just one voyage! Seeing as how our ships never returned to U.K.,and we consequently joined and left ships by air,they became a bit of a hassle-the solid wooden boxes weighed more than the ruddy instrument,and one looked a bit of a nerd transporting it as hand buggage round the airports.
Later on,the companies always provided at least one sextant,but more usually two,of the cheaper,but still very good Japanese sextants(Tamaya,I think).Even though they were used by all three watchkeepers and well used,they were always looked after,cleaned and checked for sextant errors.It was the 2nd Mate's responsibility.
As Captain Kong says,Plath sextants were the best,and something to aspire to...needless to say,our hard-earned money went on other more important things...so there were very few Plath owners around....but woe betide anyone else who touched someone else's Plath!
Then came Satnav. Whilst deep sea,it was always good and wise to keep your hand in and check the vessel's position and daily run using sextant sights,indeed some masters required it.
No satisfaction though in looking longingly at and,lovingly feeling a satnav box,like one could do with one's sextant.....Ah Me!
Gulliver

[Potaro]

Many thx.for your responses Gulliver and Captain Kong. I am interested in trying to assess whether it was
usual or the exception for Companies to provide a sextant in the wheelhouse. I only sailed with Royal Mail
(1959-1968)and being in my 20s and inexperienced I tended to assume that other Companies' procedures
were the same as RML. Over the years since I came ashore I have found out that there was wide variation even within sister Companies within the Furness,Withy Group( Houlders,Shaw Savill,PSNC,RML,Prince Line etc).

I queried this with a lifelong Mate from our days with RML and he says there was no "spare" sextant on the bridge of any RML ship to his knowledge. The Marine Superintendents would have assumed that any certificated Deck Officer appointed would have his own sextant and, if found to be otherwise, he would have been told where he could purchase one before sailing, certainly if he was sailing deep-sea on Foreign Going Articles although maybe not for Home Trade. Cadets or Apprentices,[whichever title a Company preferred],were not required to be so equipped.

So much changed later,of course, but during the 1940s,50s & 60s RML, like most of the old liner Companies, did not fly out relief Mates or Engineers unless it was absolutely necessary to maintain the requisite number
of tickets following death or hospitalisation ashore or removal because of alcohol- induced DTs as they had relatively short round trips. I imagine this would have been the same for Cunard,Union Castle,Canadian Pacific and maybe P & O although its round trips to Oz and NZ were longer. However it would have been different for ships away for up to 2 years.The very understandable problem of carting a heavy sextant in a wooden box as cabin hand luggage on an aircraft did not normally arise.

Thx.again shipmates. Fair winds and happy landings.

[Gulliver]

I'm not sure whether a sextant had to be provided under the MS Navigational Equipment rules for each British vessel.....?
In traditional companies,before my time,the Old Man would 'shoot noon' with both the 2nd and 3rd Mates,so I rather I think he (the Old Man)would either use his own sextant,or one provided by the company,and in the safe keeping of the Old Man himself...i.e. the 'company' sextant.
Short answer then.I think that each proper British company would provide a sextant,and that the 2nd Mate in your posting would have used that 'company' sextant.In later years the Old Man left sights up to the junior mates,so I doubt there would be any objection to a 2nd Mate using the ship's sextant ,if he didn't have his own .
Regards
Gulliver

[Don Rafferty]

I think the sextant (and binoculars?) was a bit like the cook's knives or the deckhand's palm or Greenriver knife, always something else around to use, but much better to have your own.

What about engineers, was the ship always well enough equipped with all the small tools you'd need - screwdrivers, pliers, spanners, sockets etc., if not, a sextant and box would be as nothing compared to a well stocked toolbox.

I seem to remember there was always one large telescope on the bridge, that was taken out of it's box and cleaned occasionally, but otherwise unused, but it was a BoT requirement that one was carried, is that correct?

[jimmys]

When I was in Blue Funnel 1960's it was a noon ritual and all the Deck Officers and the Master took the noon sight. They all had their own sextants and anyone who wanted to try used to go up and have a go. They used a company sextant. I would have thought at least half a dozen sextants on most of the ships.
It was a popular thing navigation and a number of other people aboard those ships had an interest.

regards
jimmy

[dave smiley]

I have just read this and would like to add, that it was always considered to be part of ones make-up, if you were an aspiring navigator, to own and carry your own.
I was with BSL when I got Second Mates in 62, and remember spending £30 on a used Plath I found in Glasgow - a month of junior cadets wages!
I don't remember a Compnay sextant on any ship I sailed on, and I went from BSL to Houlders toTrident Tankers
with mine. As someone has commented, it was rare to fly to join your ship in those days, but I did occasionally, and I remember that carrying that box was like a doctor carrying a Gladstone bag, it set you apart and identified your position as a Navigator - ssmething I was proud of.

[Ivan Cloherty]

I have just read this and would like to add, that it was always considered to be part of ones make-up, if you were an aspiring navigator, to own and carry your own.
I was with BSL when I got Second Mates in 62, and remember spending £30 on a used Plath I found in Glasgow - a month of junior cadets wages!
I don't remember a Compnay sextant on any ship I sailed on, and I went from BSL to Houlders toTrident Tankers
with mine. As someone has commented, it was rare to fly to join your ship in those days, but I did occasionally, and I remember that carrying that box was like a doctor carrying a Gladstone bag, it set you apart and identified your position as a Navigator - ssmething I was proud of.

In PSNC as cadets we were told we must have a sextant, turned out to be a bit of an ornament, as our bridge duties seemed to be limited to, docking stations, brass cleaning etc, very little interest was shown in teaching us navigation.

Of course the only time we flew is when we fell off the stage!

Ivan

[Alan Hill]

There was no reason not to have you're own sextant, when I first went to sea there were lots of old vernier sextants around for not much money (wish I'd bought them all up..!).

I have a feeling that latterly they were provided, partly to save people having to carry them around when flying out to join a ship became the norm. I always carried my own sextant, it's upstairs in the attic, the box much scarred with the remains of a few labels still adhering, the lock missing from the box when after joining one ship I found I'd lost the key.