Get Uncle Alec Victor Martin born 1903

[Ralph Godley]

I am on a mission to find what I can about my wife’s Great Uncle Alec Martin who was born in Haywards Heath, Sussex in 1903. I visited National Archives yesterday and found him on Empire Panther voyage Hull-New York-Glasgow. Left Hull July 1941. Arrived back in Glasgow in September. He had been absent without leave in July and Captain fined him 5 shillings but good behaviour on voyage Captain D A Reid cancelled the fine only for Alec to go AWOL again in Glasgow and ‘considered to be a deserter’!! He was a Mess room Steward.
In the 1939 National Register Alec’s occupation is described as Saloon Steward Gunner Book R 158414 RMS Ols.
Ols is misleading as his ship is something like Otrontris or Olzontris….the original document is very difficult to read.
I also have Alec Martin on crew of Port Hobart Feb 1931 arriving at New York.
Alec married in 1934 but it failed during the war. His wife had a son. That son is now in his 80s and never knew who his father was until my wife did her DNA.

My questions:
1. How can I find out more about Alec’s Merchant Navy service.?
2. What happens if someone goes AWOL and is recorded as a ‘deserter’? Jail? Can he serve again?
3. What does the 1939 description’ Saloon Steward Gunner Book R 158414’ mean?
4. What is the real name of RMS Ols? Otrontris

Thank you,
Ralph Godley

[Marian Gray]

Hello Ralph, Welcome to the site, thank you for the relevent information.Will check out a few sites and come back to you shortly.Answers in no particular order.

No, 4:Ship on 1939 census is Rms Otrontres Thinking it is the one below as 1st ship with that name was scrapped in 1925:

Steam Turbine ORONTES built by Vickers-Armstrongs Ltd. in 1929 for Orient Steam Navigation Co. Ltd., Barrow, Passenger / Cargo

Using the Ship's Reg No: 146027 brings you to the link below which you have to pay for.
Page1. the cost of a page check (£8.40)

https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ls/r/C11025991

No,2, Hugh, Vernon of other members will be able to answer that for you as I'm landlubber!

No,3, Apart from Alex being a Saloon Steward normally, I can only assume he was trained to use guns on the ship in war time, again best for Hugh to answer that question properly.

No 1, How many dates/ships do you have listed on Alex's CRS 10? If he joined the MN tail end of WW1 those records were destroyed. Will search for others meantime.

[Hugh]

Hello and welcome Ralph,
Here are some cards from the Fourth Register of Seamen. I have transcribed the ship's official numbers for you.

145970 – AUSONIA – 8.6.1937 - his first ship or at least his first foreign voyage.
147307 – ASCANIA – 12.8.1937
146027 – ORONTES – 24.9.1937
164493 – ORION – 7.10.1938
146027 – ORONTES – 19.5.1939
164493 – ORION – 20.10.1939
161093 – NAKWA – 9.5.1940
167430 - EMPIRE SUCCESS – 26.12.1940

What happens if someone goes AWOL and is recorded as a ‘deserter’? Jail? Can he serve again?

Short answer - yes, but this is not to be viewed in the same way as say a military person. During WW2, If a seaman did not return to his ship he would be marked as a deserter or have his book stamped with a 'DR' (Declined to Report) or VNC (Voyage not Completed) in the conduct column of his Dis.A book. Many seamen who did not return to their ship - for whatever reason - were still allowed to sail during the war. We needed every man we had.

What does the 1939 description’ Saloon Steward Gunner Book R 158414’ mean?

His job was a saloon steward but over 150,000 merchant seamen were trained as merchant seamen gunners during the war. Their job was to assist the military D.E.M.S. gunners when the ship was at action stations.
Book number R 158414 is his discharge book number. His Dis.A or more formally his Continuous Certificate of Discharge. It is the seaman's pivotal reference akin to a service number.

Regards
Hugh

[Marian Gray]

Ralph, There is a wee problem here! Details supplied of an Alexander Victor Martin b 14/3/1903 at Haywards Heath, Sussex as stated in the 1939 census. Thinking the 3 could possibly be 8.

However, the Dis A No is for R 158414 belongs to an Albert Victor Martin b 14/8/1903, Haywards Heath, Sussex

There are many to choose from but need clarification to establish the correct one please. Do you have the name of the lady he married, where and when, also date and place of death if you have it, or his parents names all for cross reference purposes.

[Hugh]

I noticed that too Marian and also that Ralph states he has him on a voyage in 1931 on PORT HOBART. My information is for Albert Victor Martin whose Dis.A was given by Ralph in his opening posts.
It is possible we have a case of two seamen here. Ralph needs to advise if Dis.A - R158414 is who he is looking for or another?
Regards
Hugh

[Ralph Godley]

GREAT UNCLE ALEC VICTOR MARTIN [AVM]
I am most grateful for your invaluable help and insight so far.
I have taken a while to reply as I have been rechecking what I know about AVM. It is so easy to get the wrong person when doing this research.
I think Marian is correct on the 1939 census, it should be August and not March 1903.
Alec's birth was registered in the 3rd Quarter July, August, September 1903 record and I know that he was baptized at St Wilfred's, Haywards Heath on 13th September 1903. As we know, back then babies were baptizes very soon after their birth.
I am convinced that AVM was born 14th August 1903.
His father was Frederick Martin born 1867 in Goring by Sea, Sussex. His mother was Mary Jane Ann Norman born 1863 in Rotherfield, Sussex.
Frederick was a Railway Signalman for the London & South Coast Railway [ L.M +SC Railway]

I have just this morning made an exciting discovery. I have found Alec Martin on the crew list of Empire Cranmer arriving in Boston, Mass in May 1942 from Swansea. He is Asst Steward with 6 years service at sea.
That answers the question about whether he would be allowed to do further voyages after deserting Empire Panther in Glasgow in September 1941. Hugh was right, in WW11 they needed every man to do his duty.

I think my reference to Port Hobart in 1931 can be ignored. The wrong Alec Martin!

My Alec Martin was down as 5 and a half years service when he was on Empire Panther in summer 1941. That would take us back to end of 1935, early 1936 which fits in well with Hugh's list with the suggestion that he night have had a few non-foreign voyages before joining AUSONIA.

When I next go to the National Archives in Kew I will try to look at the original voyage documents for the ships on Hugh's list.

A member of the family who met Alec says ' He was in the Merchant Navy during the war and then went on to be a waiter on the 'London Euston to Scotland' railway line. He lived in Hampstead.'

Alec married Gaenor Gladys Walker in July 1934. His son was born in July 1937 but we now know that Alec was onboard AUSONIA at the time of the birth and then seems pretty much to have been away at sea for years.
It starts to paint the picture that Alec & Gaenor's marriage was already 'on the rocks' and that they were seperated for quite a few years before they divorced in ? 1945?
Alec's son never met his father and doesn't to this day know whether his father even knew of his existence.

AVM did re-marry but they didn't have any children.
I am not sure when AVM died but he was at his brother [Norman] funeral in 1980.

Thank you again for your interest in my search.
Best wishes,
Ralph