Merchant Navy Sailor early WWI, Cannot trace him

[Richard Pugh]

Hi Guys,
I have previously found the wealth of knowledge on this Forum, to exceed my expectations.
So I now have a really " You haven't got a hope" type Question.

I have a man Kenneth Johnson, born 26th Oct 1911, Joined MN after 1939, and was transferred to Trinity House by Feb.1941.

My outlandish question Is:-

My understanding is that all MN seaman are issued with a Unique No. (a bit like an army service No,??), when they first sign up, and they carry that number with them for the rest of their career. Is there somewhere a Master List of these Numbers with names against them??

When he joined Trinity House would he have used his MN No. or is that a totally different Service. TH have no records of him. He would have been with TH till at least the end of WWII. Again no information of when he left TH.

I have Nothing else to go on.

Has anyone got any bright ideas,

Regards

Richard

[Doc Vernon]

Hello Richard
Where was he Born ?? Could it be possible that he may have given his wrong age at Entry? This did happen on many occasions for some or other reason.

His Discharge Number as you say is kept for life , so i guess no other Number would have been used!

Dont know if Southampton Archives may have his original Records???

Could also contact TH , they may be able to assist?? Send an Email with all info you may have to hand!

Trinity House
Tower Hill
London
EC3N 4DH

enquiries@trinityhouse.co.uk

Cheers

[Doc Vernon]

After searching i find that there were no records for that era on Seaman but i may be reading this wrong??

The Merchant Navy began to register its seamen again, after decades of not doing so, in 1913. Names and other details were entered into the Central Indexed Register, also known as the Fourth Register of Seamen. However, the entries for 1913 to 1917 and all but the last two months of 1918 were destroyed, so for the war years you are left with medal records and the agreements and crew lists – unless your seaman was an apprentice or died in service in which case there may be a separate record.

Still worth a try at

Central index of Merchant Seamen (southampton.gov.uk)

Could also be in this Series ??

Johnson John Robert to Johnson Peter Winston | The National Archives

[j.sabourn]

Does the enquirer looking for info.know what Trinity House is and their duties ? Trinity House to my knowledge was a government outfit and their duties were lighthouses lightships and other government enterprises such as buoyed channels etc. etc. as a civilian you would probably have to apply directly to them for employment , if I am wrong someone will soon correct. As a seaman in our time one was issued with a discharge book with a number which was similar to a NHI number and you kept for life if possible , this you had to have to serve on any British federated ship mainly as a means of identification. JS

[Richard Pugh]

Hello Richard
Where was he Born ?? Could it be possible that he may have given his wrong age at Entry? This did happen on many occasions for some or other reason.

His Discharge Number as you say is kept for life , so i guess no other Number would have been used!

Dont know if Southampton Archives may have his original Records???

Could also contact TH , they may be able to assist?? Send an Email with all info you may have to hand!

Trinity House
Tower Hill
London
EC3N 4DH

enquiries@trinityhouse.co.uk

Cheers

Hi Doc Vernon,
Thanks for your response.
He was born at Harwich, Essex. There was no reason for him to lie about his age, he chose to join the MN as he had seen the Squaddies training and decided that was not for him.
You say contact Southampton Archives. Why Southampton? Is that the Record Holder for MN Records? If so do you have any contact details please.
Regards
Richard

[Richard Pugh]

Does the enquirer looking for info.know what Trinity House is and their duties ? Trinity House to my knowledge was a government outfit and their duties were lighthouses lightships and other government enterprises such as buoyed channels etc. etc. as a civilian you would probably have to apply directly to them for employment , if I am wrong someone will soon correct. As a seaman in our time one was issued with a discharge book with a number which was similar to a NHI number and you kept for life if possible , this you had to have to serve on any British federated ship mainly as a means of identification. JS

Hi J.Sabourn,
Oh yes,well aware of TH, I live in Harwich and their base is in Harwich.
ALL the effects of this individual have been lost, NOT a single thing remains. I mean nothing, we will leave the reasons of how and why in the dark, and move on.
So it seems I was correct, he would have had a Number, and a Card / Book, but that no longer exists, so trying to find what that Number was, to enable the search to move on.
Thanks for your response,
Regards
Richard

[Richard Pugh]

Hi Richard, Is Kenneth Johnson his full name and was he born Essex?
Do you know when he left the MN or his date of death?
Why did Kenneth reside at TH for 4yrs? Do you have his Discharge No?
Did he marry if so do you have his wife's maiden name? or his parents names.
There is a Kenneth Johnson showing in the 1939 census listed as a Barman could that be him?

Hi Marian Gray,
Thanks for responding,
Yes the person you have found in the 1939 Census is the same person. He saw the army putting the troops through their paces outside the pub, in the car park. That is why he joined the MN.
It is believed that he joined the MN soon after the 1939 Register, to avoid being conscripted into the army, so that would have been late 1939 / early 1940. But it is said that he was ashore in Swansea having left the MN in about 1941, when he then joined TH. How long he stayed in TH is not known, but assumed to be at least for the Duration. After this time it is believed he worked ashore.
He died 1984, Swansea. I have traced his Family uphill and Downdale, but it is his own history I seek, especially the war time service, this is the Black Hole.

Regards

Richard

[Doc Vernon]

Hello Richard
In my Post #3 i had given a Link to the Southampton Archives , but as you read on , i am not sure if they will hold Records for him ??
Southampton hold many Original Records for Merchant Seaman, but for certain periods only!
That is why i said try them, but feel the National Archives would be your best bet!
Cheers

[Richard Pugh]

After searching i find that there were no records for that era on Seaman but i may be reading this wrong??

The Merchant Navy began to register its seamen again, after decades of not doing so, in 1913. Names and other details were entered into the Central Indexed Register, also known as the Fourth Register of Seamen. However, the entries for 1913 to 1917 and all but the last two months of 1918 were destroyed, so for the war years you are left with medal records and the agreements and crew lists – unless your seaman was an apprentice or died in service in which case there may be a separate record.

Still worth a try at

Central index of Merchant Seamen (southampton.gov.uk)

Could also be in this Series ??

Johnson John Robert to Johnson Peter Winston | The National Archives

Hi Doc Vernon,

I got excited reading your post till I got to the bit where you said, "and Then They Destroyed them".
No he was Not and Apprentice. No he did NOT die in service.
Agreements and Crew Lists, may be useful, but I would need to know his Number and or the Ships. I know none of these.
Medal Records I had not thought of, however, I don't think he served long enough for a medal, but Never say Die, I will explore that route, thanks.
Southampton and TNA are another two good hunting grounds, thanks for that.

Regards
Richard

- - - Updated - - -

Hello Richard
In my Post #3 i had given a Link to the Southampton Archives , but as you read on , i am not sure if they will hold Records for him ??
Southampton hold many Original Records for Merchant Seaman, but for certain periods only!
That is why i said try them, but feel the National Archives would be your best bet!
Cheers

Hi Doc Vernon,
Sorry I jumped the Gun, I responded to your earlier post, missing the fact that you had given the Southampton link, apologies.
Yes I have taken on board your suggestion of TNA
Regards
Richard

[Doc Vernon]

No worries Richard
I hope that you may go forward with your research, its at times a very hard task but well worth the efforts if they bring forth results!
Please keep us updated on what transpires!
Thanks

An Initial enquiry to the NA would be the first step now i feel Richard as you say you have taken that on board! Good!!

Richard i would still also go forward with an Email to Southampton in case, just ask the Question with as much info as you have to them, always worth a try!

city.archives@southampton.gov.uk