question regarding cadets and apprentices.

[Ian Adrian Millar]

My late father served in the Merchant Navy and got his start as an apprentice with Kaye & Son SS Company back in the 30s. I have a copy of his indenture papers. My father always referred to his days as a cadet in the Merchant Navy. My question is were apprentices also cadets. I am pretty sure that Dad did not attend any schoolship.

Thanks for your thoughts
Ian

[Graham Wallace]

My late father served in the Merchant Navy and got his start as an apprentice with Kaye & Son SS Company back in the 30s. I have a copy of his indenture papers. My father always referred to his days as a cadet in the Merchant Navy. My question is were apprentices also cadets. I am pretty sure that Dad did not attend any schoolship.

Thanks for your thoughts
Ian

I was a 1955 BP Tanker Co Marine Engineering Apprentice. In 1966 BP TC Changed the names of all Apprentices Deck and Engineering to Cadets. I signed an Apprenticeship document , though not too sure what the Deck guys did. When I went to sea as an Apprentice I had a MN Discharge Book, the Deck guys did not until they finished their time so it was a little odd.
Graham

[Ian Adrian Millar]

Thank you Graham for your comments. My Dad was an apprentice around 1936/37 and we have a copy of the indenture paper he signed with Kaye & Son and as I recall it was signed by my Grandmother and one of her brothers as well. I have never seen any MN Discharge book for my dad so he may not have had one. I still have to try and find a source for that material. I know that he did sail aboard the MARYLYN and also the SERINGA and the GYPSUM QUEEN in which he was torpedoed off Greenland in 1941. I would think he might have been issued a discharge book at some point but perhaps it was lost with the rest of his belongings in the sinking. Anyway my main concern is that we recognize my father's service as it was, regardless if it was as an apprentice or a cadet he did his bit and we are very proud of that.

Ian

[Chris Allman]

I always thought that the difference between Apprentice and Cadet was that an Apprentice was Indentured and a Cadet was not. I served my time in L+H employed as a Company Cadet. I was not indentured and signed on Articles just like any member of the Crew and had my own Discharge Book. We wore a Cadets Uniform off duty and ate in the Saloon, apart from that we worked day work on deck under the Bosun just like the normal deck crew of ABs, EDH's, and OS,'s. Sometimes we did Gangway Duty in uniform if the ship had special guests visiting but we learnt our trade the hard way. Any study had to be done in our own time including educational visits to the bridge, unless we were required to man the wheel. Other visits to the Bridge was for Brass Polishing, bridge cleaning and painting. However there was no bull as Blue Flu had and who called their Apprentices - Midshipmen and had their own training ships manned in main on deck by the apprentices.

[Doc Vernon]

Hello Ian
Can you supply your Fathers full name and Date of Birth (Year will do) and also place
This will help to try and see if there is copies of his Dischrage Book. He must have had one if he served on Ships i feel.
Thank You

[Ian Adrian Millar]

Doc Vernon, many thanks for your note. Dad's details Adrian Edwards Millar, born November 11, 1918 at Roselle, New Jersey USA

Thanks again

Ian

Also thanks Chris. It makes sense what you say about the apprentice/cadet difference. For sure my dad was an apprentice as he had to sign his life away.

[Doc Vernon]

Thank you Ian
Had a quick look a the NA but there is no Seaman,s Pouch record for Discharge Book for that name ,there are only three entries Born 1918 with that Surname , each Born in 1) Toronto 2) Cadenden 3) Greenock

So am not sure ,why no records!? The only way now is to check the CRS10 Records which may hold something,but that is at a cost .
Other than that Southampton Archives may have something.

Central index of Merchant Seamen

He was British Merchant Navy i take it!?
Cheers

[Des Taff Jenkins]

Been through my book British vessels lost 39-45 no sign of Gypsum Queen being sunk in 41. So maybe Vernon is right and she was an American ship. Also survivors received a discharge book relplacement.
Des

[Doc Vernon]

This is from Uboat net it does give that Ship name and Crew on it at the time ,however your Dads name would not be there as he survived, I will still look around .
I see there is one RN on that list possibly he too was RN THEN ??
cHEERS

Crew lists from ships hit by U-boats Gypsum Queen British steam merchant. This is a listing of people associated with this ship. We also have a detailed page on the British steam merchant Gypsum Queen. Aboard Gypsum Queen when hit on 11 Sep 1941. You can click on any of the names for possible additional information.

The stern shot at 02.12 hours hit the Gypsum Queen, which sank within one minute. The master, eight crew members and one gunner from the Gypsum Queen (Master Alban Jason Chapman) were lost. 23 crew members and three gunners were picked up by the Norwegian steam merchant Vestland and landed at Belfast. On board

gYPSUM qUEEN WITH tUG.JPG

[happy daze john in oz]

Sent to me by JS, do wish he would return.


John Chris Allman Is mostly correct re difference between cadets and apprentices. People assume. They are the same they were not in my time. An apprentice did not get a discharge in his book. His name was in the articles in the young persons page if under 18. His seatime was written on the back of his indentures and signed by the company for proof for the B.O.T. He had no entitlement to leave . He was in fact the property of the owner. For that privilige a bond was put on his head usually by his parents if he had any. Which was payable if he skinned out or was sacked for bad behaviour. He could be used in the manning scale depending on his seatime for any rank up to AB. A cadet signed on a ship as cadet and paid off as a cadet and could leave a ship the same as any other crew member and go to another company. It later became convenient to call apprentices cadets which they were not. The same as a master being called captain, purely a complimentary title as captain is a military title, with someone holding the queens commission. Today anything goes. For my 4 years apprenticeship I had one discharge which was a mistake by the master , as he knew no better at the time. An apprentice had a Dis, Book which was kept as usual by the master as had on it everything else regarding paperwork required by various port officials , NHI number , description of seaman, foreign visas stamped in back viz. CCPR ( USSR) , vaccination cert. etc etc. cadets were paid more than apprentices and were not serfs as such. They were the privateers among a bunch of pirates. I also believe although called midshipmen , blue flu apprentices were in fact apprentices as signed indentures . If I had of had my way I would have joined the RN at 15 done my 22 years for a pension , come out and did the exact as I did in any case, would have been a damn sight easier and better paid no doubt. Parents do what they think is right but unfortuanetley are liable to make mistakes on thinking they are doing right. My son who is now in his 50s asked me why I had never asked him if he would like a sea going life. I would have thought the long separations would have been self explanatory., as would never push someone into a position they would later regret. Unless you have the luck of the Irish to marry the correct woman , you are up the creek without a paddle. When I ask my wife today all she says is I knew what I was marrying. She never nagged me to come ashore, the. Few times I thought about it was on my own choice. Think I said we even got a 58 year congratulation from the PM and another from the Governor General 2 weeks ago. Something to leave for the great grandkids , as said before , there won’t be any money. Cheers John S.