Liverpool

I watched this programme last night and found it enjoyable - especially some of the film clips they dug out. Ricky Tomlinson is not to everyone's liking but is a great actor and comedian and a decent kind of bloke by all accounts.

But he should not be surprised about the way his working-class ancestors were treated in the past - especially with his background in trade unions. It was certainly not just Liverpool though but the entire country. Many of my ancestors came from Deptford and lived in appalling conditions. My grandmother and her sisters were put into a Workhouse when their father died; my grandmother was only 7 at the time.

Some people get angry about some of the excesses of trade unionism in the 60s and beyond, but don't forget that the trade union pioneers did much to improve the lot of working class people and helped us towards the mainly middle-class world we inhabit in the UK today.

In the 1861 Census, my great Aunt Emily was 8 years old and described as a Coal Miner. I have no idea how long she had been a miner before that.
and the Do Gooders complain about Britain's Slave Trade.
Brian

It’s a pity that Ricky Tomlinson was not guided by a historian in his personal treatise on the Religious Divide in Liverpool, which, according to him, had been solved by the unity of a strike at the beginning of the 20th Century. Sorry, Ricky, but Liverpool had a long (and painful) journey, involving hard work and letting go of a couple of hundred years of endemic bigotry.

I was at a Convent School in the City centre, 1955-62. Orangeman’s Day on 12th July meant ‘late-leave’ until 10.00am. This was to avoid the Orange marches across the City to Exchange Street Station where thousands embarked for a day trip to Southport. Personally, I really looked forward to the 12th as a day with an hour less in school! However, for some pupils in their Catholic School uniforms living in certain areas, it meant keeping their heads down until the Marches had passed.

Liverpool Football Club would not even employ a Catholic Groundsman. Hence the religious divide of the teams of Liverpool and Everton.

M.D.H.B. would not employ Catholics. My father was the first, and for many years the only, Catholic employed by the Dock Board. He got the job of Dock Master in 1945 because of his friendship with Sir Max Horton (Western Approaches )

In 1958 a new Archbishop of Liverpool, John Heenan, visited a house-bound Parishioner in Scotland Road. His car was stoned and spat on and it made National news. This marked the beginning of a new era in Liverpool, because people realised that what was rumbling underground had come to the surface and it was ugly.

Heenan went on to inaugurate a competition to build a new Cathedral to be completed in 5 years and to cost no more than £1million. He was followed by Archbishop Beck who met monthly with the leaders of the other churches.

In 1976 Archbishop Derek Worlock was appointed and formed a long friendship with Bishop David Sheppard. They visited their parishioners TOGETHER, amalgamated the 3 Church Teacher Training Colleges to form Liverpool Hope University and worked for reconciliation and the regeneration of the City after the Toxteth Riots in 1981.
Both Cathedrals have welcomed the Queen (1976) and the Pope (1982)
Worlock & Sheppard are now immortalised in statues in Hope Street, the road which links the Anglican Cathedral Church to the Catholic Cathedral. In Liverpool, the 2 Bishops were known as,” Fish and Chips” – always together and in the newspapers.

I am very proud of the city of my birth. Proud that it rose above sectarianism and hatred and avoided becoming another Belfast. Proud that it kept on in its ecumenical tradition. Proud that it has a wonderful history of welcoming peoples of all Faith and none.

My grandmother used to say to me when I was a little girl, “We are all going to the same God.“
Indeed, we are.

regards
Brenda

I went to a school in London which had pupils who were C of E, Catholic and Jewish and nobody really gave a toss. Later in life, learning about cities with sectarian divisions I just couldn't understand it. I still but it goes on in Christianity and I S L A M - probably other religions as well. (By the way why the **** is the name of that religion removed from the forum as if it was a swear word?)

It is all very sad and led me to the conclusion long ago that this is nothing to do with God and everything to do with people wanting to lord it over other people.

A plague on all religions - they are more trouble than they are worth in my opinion.

thank god i.m an atheist mam always said gods good and the devil is not to bad?? jp

I couldn't understand mine, she always called me a Son of a Bitch.
Brian

#23, Thank you Brenda, that was an education, JC

Thank you, John. I hope that my history did not sound too ‘green’, and that I didn’t cause any offence to anyone. There were difficulties and problems on both sides of the religious divide.

When Pete(C of E) and I married 45 years ago we were determined that we would have no divisions and that we would only discuss religion and not argue about it. Our 3 girls went to a Catholic School and were brought up within the 2 Churches, attending the C of E Parish Church as well as the Catholic one. Now they have their own families and they are doing the same.

In this village we have a long tradition of the Churches working together – C.of E., Methodist & Catholic. The Methodists used the Catholic Church for many months when their Chapel was being repaired; Christian Communicare exists to take patients to hospital/Dental appointments; every Advent Sunday we hand-deliver a Christmas Card to all the homes and businesses (this year 3,300…..) We come together for Lent lunches, Pulpit swaps, Christian Aid, Walk of Witness. Can’t think of any more at the moment !

Back to my grandmother ! “We are all going to the same God”
Regards
Brenda

Ps. By the way, our youngest daughter was born on 12th July – Orangeman’s Day. I think God was having a laugh…..:)

mam always said religion doe's not put a loaf on the table? it should be a private thing not rammed down in schools or churches if you need to go to church then go. I wonder how many have died for one book or another.. jp

#28, Hello Brenda, I joined my first ship at Liverpool's Gladstone Dock in 1955 I have been there several times but only know
the city as a sea port and for the many great entertainment artiste Liverpool has produced, I have some great memories
of the sea port and ship mates that have come from there. I am always interested in reading the posts concerning the
docks and shipping news, so when I read your post I learnt from it as I never realised there was so much division in the
people with their churches, I'm glad to say I've never experienced these things as I've always accepted people for who
they are and not what they believe in as that is their business. My own feelings are that you do not have to go to church
to pray if you believe and have faith God is with you just as much as he is with church goers. That is just the way my mind
sees it, hope this doesn't cause any offence as it is a delicate subject. wishing you and yours a happy and healthy 2017. JC