Death of Innocence.

I'm not sure why you used the word secular in this context because it means NOT specifically religious.

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Originally Posted by Douglas Bay

I wish I could dig up counter arguments from esteemed Israeli historians, professors and business heads who claim the opposite - that Israel in fact NEEDS
to fight Hamas - who are, like it or not, supported by the majority of Palestinians - in order for Israel to remain a sovereign state, whose governments was
elected by their people for their people.
But I cannot spare the time.
That's the problem with cherry picking certain commentaries reflecting one view rather than quoting BOTH sides of the argument.

This was a point stressed by PM Sunak in PMQs today - when replying to an over-impassioned leftist Labour MP who demanded tht this government
support the ICC in "bringing the Israeli PM to justice for - (wait for it) - "war crimes!!!"
A factor wholly supported by the Shadow Foreign Minister, David Lammy.
Sunak replied that the ICC had done absolutely nothing since the October 7th atrocity occured - and now this feeble institution are considering
bringing charges against a democratically elected leader of his people. Where does common logic lie?
With a democratic government striving to protect its people OR with terrorists who think nothing of blowing up innocent people?
And when this is done, the left winger do-gooders are up in arms supporting the terrorists!
Unbelievable!

This just goes to show just how intoxicated with stupidity some of these do-good Labour MPs are with their disillusionment that Hamas/Palestinians
are grossly wronged by Israel's counter-action against terrorism.

I honestly fear a Labour government should they be elected as I see them inviting atrocities into this country by their insipid passiveness in the face
of terrorism - I see them shift the balance in favour of immigrants rather than the indiginous folk.
And if that happens, it's time to pack one's bags and head up to the very north of Scotland .....
The sadness of it all was portrayed by the the baying of Labour MPs waving their order papers in support of the MP who put the question to the Prime Minister.
This then is what this country has come to ... and it frightens the hell out of me!

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And if that happens, it's time to pack one's bags and head up to the very north of Scotland. You had best start house hunting:rolleyes:

Here is the email address for Reform Party seeing as you are heading north.

highlandsandislands@reformuk.com <highlandsandislands@reformuk.com>;

I should imagine you may find the welcome mat may be missing when you cross the border, especially seeing as Scotland will be under Labour control especially seeing the mess that the SNP are in, good luck:)

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Originally Posted by Johnny Kieran

Entirely agree Douglas. We all know that Israel is not fighting innocent Palestinian civilians, and I've never heard anyone express any hatred for them, only the murdering Hamas fighters and their supporters, That hide behind their own people and use them as shields.
What Israel are doing is fighting a war of survival, and as in most wars, there are two sides. If one side is represented by the likes of the Manchester bombers, or any other murdering movements, then I support the other. It's not a war about national principles, it's a religious war, being waged by religious fanatics, who's principles are dictated by their religion. I haven't heard of any Islamic nation supplying arms to Israel, but they all seem to be supplying arms to Hamas. We've all seen videos of constant streams of rockets being fired at Israel from Gaza and surrounding areas, I Know which side I want to win, because we'll be next if they don't.

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"We all know that Israel is not fighting innocent Palestinian civilians". No not fighting just slaughtering them by the thousands including a high proportion of children and untold numbers of badly wounded victims.

It's not a war about national principles " Yes it is read the history.

"I've never heard anyone express any hatred for them, only the murdering Hamas fighters and their supporters, " So they are just killing them out of indifference ?

Just listen to the older Zionists boasting openly of taking part in destroying villages and driving the people out (still doing it in the West Bank )

"It's not a war about national principles, it's a religious war, being waged by religious fanatics who's principles dictated by their religion." Exactly, their called Zionists

"We've all seen videos of constant streams of rockets being fired at Israel from Gaza and surrounding area." Almost none of which get through because of the Iron Dome !!

DH

QUOTE=Douglas Bay;431500]I wish I could dig up counter arguments from esteemed Israeli historians, professors and business heads who claim the opposite.

Go ahead do some research and get it fact checked only takes a few clicks of your mouse. If you find credible information to rebuff
Israeli historian Ilan Papp please share. I may have been misled ! In the meantime you are choosing to not believe his research as it does not support your opinions.

DH
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Hey Des,
From wikipedia :
"In the pre-state period (1920s-1940s), Zionist paramilitaries like the Irgun, Lehi, Haganah and Palmach engaged in violent campaigns against British authorities, Palestinian Arabs, and internal Jewish dissenters to advance their political goals. Targets included security personnel, government figures, civilians, and infrastructure. After Israel's establishment in 1948, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and other state security forces continued to employ violence against Palestinian and neighbouring Arab populations during the 1948 war, subsequent Arab-Israeli wars, and the military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip."
Dave

Hi David.
I never went back further than my time really, I was in Abadan when the Americans attempted to reinstall the Shah to the Peacock Throne in order to control Iran's huge oil fields, they failed and have been attacking them in one way or another ever since.
I no longer live in the UK, but the politics still interests me, such as people already blaming a future maybe Labour Party Govt for the stuff ups over the last few years, the problem with politics today is the tendency to put the blame anywhere but where it should be, the people who are at present in charge. I presume that if they get elected Labour in Britain will be blamed for all the Illegal Immigrants now in Britain, just as the opposition Liberal Party here in Aus are accusing Labour over the stuff up of the Supreme Court freeing 150 hard line illegals as unsafe, they where jailed over four years before Labour gained power.
Des

187 offer the Good Samaritan, you’ll have to look up the Book , Chapter and Verse though, it’s been that long I’ve forgotten. JS

Hi Des,
Great to find a kindred spirit ! Send a gunboat up the river seems to be a common theme :):) Coincidently my circumstances are somewhat similar to yours as I now live in Canada but still follow the old country.
Wow , that was an historic moment to be in Abadan! The UK and US really made a mess earlier that still echoes today when they , with the help of the CIA deposed a fairly elected leader Mosaddegh with a bought and paid for mob.
My closest brush with history was being in Germany when the soviets were building the wall ! Big NATO exercises but fortunately no outbreak.
Agree with your thoughts on the behaviour of the Tories ,par for the course. Brexit seems to be a huge mistake particularly for younger people who are the ones we should be concerned about.
Canada with a minority government Liberals( not the UK variety) supported by NDP(similar to Labour )is by no means perfect but on the world stage workable though the far right are on the march,
Dave

Ireland along with Spain and others has said they recognize Palestine as a state.

Why not, not all the people of Gaza are from HAMAS.

Elections there for the gov were more than likely just for the one party HAMAS, how many Palestinians actually voted for them?
I believe the majority of the population just wish to live their lives in peace.

Yes, HAMAS use them as a human shield, a most murderous manner for any terrorist group to operate.

Israel has said they will never recognize a state of Palestine, that tells a great story about the ambitions of the Israel gov.
It is not just to remove HAMAS but to remove the states of Gaza and West Bank.

Yes you can call me cynical!!!

But the people of Palestine have the right to live the same as the rest of us.
Many dictators have attempted to remove countries from the globe in the past, does the world want a repeat?

A two state is the only sensible solution to this problem, then both sides must learn to live within the confines of their borders.

I don't know anyone that thinks Palestinian people should not have their own state, just as Israeli people should. But, when it comes to preferences of people, I always pick from what I know from my own experiences. I have never in my life, experienced any kind of bother from Jewish people, but on the other hand, living where I do, I have a very clear choice of who I trust, like, or dislike, and we don't need to look to history to make our judgements. It's here, today.