Merchant Navy Engineer and the meaning of ‘2nd Class’

[Derek Savage]

I know from crew lists that my grandfather (Harry Raymond Payne of Middlesbrough) joined SS Saxilby in May 1919 as a junior engineer. He became a 3rd engineer on the same ship and travelled across the world, often transporting coal from Cardiff. He transferred to SS Siltonhall at Barry in December 1924 but had left the service by 1927.
I am trying to discover if he became a 2nd engineer at any stage. In BT 320 at The National Archives, I have discovered a record which gives his certificate number (61595) and a date of passing an examination at West Hartlepool of 11 Aug 1922. The ‘Grade of Certificate’ is given as ‘2nd Class’.
Would I be correct in assuming that the ‘2nd class’ description refers to his 3rd Engineer grade – rather than him becoming a 2nd engineer at that time?
Thank you.

[robpage]

2nd Class is a Certificate of competency as Second Engineer

[Derek Savage]

2nd Class is a Certificate of competency as Second Engineer

Thanks Rob

My grandfather joined SS Saxilby as a junior engineer in 1919 so would that be about right that he graduated to a 2nd engineer three years later on 11 Aug 1922?

I’m confused because I have crew lists which show him as a 3rd engineer on a number of voyages on SS Siltonhall in 1925 and 1926. ‘2/c’ is written next to ‘3rd’ and his certificate number.

Can anyone tell me what ‘2/c’ means please?

If he’d already become a 2nd engineer in 1922, what would be the reasons for him serving as a 3rd on Siltonhall three years later? Would it simply have been that he was yet to find a position as a 2nd engineer?

[Ivan Cloherty]

You must remember Derek that in the period 1920 - 1927 the UK (as well as the rest of the world) was in the doldrums with high unemployment everywhere, 2nd mates were sailing as AB's, masters were sailing as 2nd mates and so on and the same would apply to engineroom staff as well, people took jobs and positions where ever they could to keep bread on the table, so it was not unusual to see a fluctuation of ranks in a persons Discharge Book in that era. Also in the Engineroom (I stand to be corrected) it also depended upon the BHP of the engine of a particular vessel, but engineers will advise you on that aspect

[Fouro]

An applicant for a 3rd class steamship engineer certificate, who held a 1st class, 2nd class, or 3rd class motor ship certificate, would have had to serve at least 6 months of service as an engineer on one or more steamships with a propulsive power of at least 500kw and he would have had to pass an oral examination to determine whether he had the engineering knowledge required to gain his Steamship certificate.
I would also add that motor engineers would have worked on boilers, but not turbines and without the necessary details required to serve on steamships, I don't think one would have felt very confident firing up a cold steamer.

Fouro.

[Peter F Chard]

As an apprentice Fitter and Turner at Fleetwood in the early 1950's I and the other apprentices used to earn a few extra $'s by getting the engine rooms ready for sea whilst the Trawler engineers knocked back a few pints in the boozer prior to sailing. This unofficial training served me well when I joined " Northern Star " to get my steamship endorsement to my Class I diesel ticket, easy peasy really!! Regards Peter in NZ.

[robpage]

I had never heard of a 3rd Engineer certificate before , what were they for ? and when

[j.sabourn]

#7... Rob must be an American certificate, beleive they also have a 3rd mates certificate. JWS.

[robpage]

I was wondering if it was meant to be a dispensation certificate , but US certificates , makes sense

[Derek Savage]

#7... Rob must be an American certificate, beleive they also have a 3rd mates certificate. JWS.

Thanks for the replies

I’m referring to British engineers’ certificates and British owned steamships. As well as 3rd engineers, there were also 4th (junior?) engineers on many of the steamships my grandfather and great grandfather sailed on as I have a number of full crew lists.

There were four engineers, for example, on SS Siltonhall in 1925 out of a total crew of 35 (belonging to West Hartlepool Steam Navigation Co). My grandfather Harry Raymond Payne listed as 3rd engineer.

There were four engineers on SS Pikepool in 1910. My great grandfather (Captain Charles Joseph Payne) was the Captain and had a total crew of 26. The ship belonged to R Ropner & Co of West Hartlepool.