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11th October 2022, 10:27 AM
#1
WW2 Tyne Colliers
Hello Everyone
I'm a (very) mature student, doing a masters in Naval History, mainly to keep the old grey matter from failing completely. I'm doing a project on WW2 East Coast convoys and I'm particularly interested in the, shall we call it, relationship between the merchant marine and RN officers. Living in Northumberland, an extract from one journal article caught my eye:
"The Royal Navy’s confidence in coastal crews grew during 1940 and 1941, but there remained particular problem spots. As Captain Champion (Naval Control Senior Officer Thames and Medway) commented to the Admiralty’s Trade Division in September 1942: ‘The behaviour of ships ex-Tyne ports is proverbial and no conference orders have any effect’. References to the ‘Tyne contingent’, ‘Tyne flotilla’, ‘Tyne Section’ can be found across the convoy reports for the duration of the war. Despite the years of practice, Commodores were still complaining about the inability of Tyneside colliers to keep station in convoy as late as October 1944"
This opens up quite a lot of questions: is this true or not? is it just prejudice against North-east masters and crews? If there is some truth, why should it be so? Poor (old, slow) ships? Maybe a cultural thing - stubborn Geordies!?
Of course, few of you here will have first hand experience of WW2. But maybe you have fathers or grandfathers who have passed down reminiscences or anecdotes about, for example, RN officers and their unrealistic expectations. Any information on the collier ships themselves or where to find that information would be very useful too. I can't believe that anybody would have trouble making friends with a Geordie(!) but has anyone any insight into why Tyneside colliers in particular might genuinely cause problems?
Whether you can help or not, it's been a pleasure discovering this website, and my best wishes to you all.
Brian
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11th October 2022, 11:22 AM
#2
Re: WW2 Tyne Colliers
Thanks for your post Brian and coming from Whitley Bay not too far from Morpeth , which as a school boy shortly after the war always had the reputation of having the loonie bin there , and was always threatened that would finish up there , however it was only schoolboy fantasies as Morpeth is a good neck of the woods and spent many days there on trips with my kids when growing up. Can’t speak for the intelligenco of those on the Tyne colliers, but watched them many times going in and coming out of the Tyne from North Shields fish Quay. if it had been Tyneside Tramp company’s may have been different as served my time with Walter Runcimans 56 Pilgrim Street Newcastle on Tyne, However if Cappy sees your post he had family worked on them I believe , and may be more
forthcoming , He is from South Shiely. No doubt you have heard the true story of Lloyd’s hailing station on the
Tyne, when asking a coaster coming in under dense fog hailed him What ship ? And when answered Anna , his
reply was ah na e nah but I wanna nah an al . Strong and brave are our NE seafarers.?
Ps my personal off the record feelings on any friction between the two services would be part time seamen ( Navy) talking to professional practical seamen who did it for a living. JS.
Cappy one of the members from South Shields some of his family were on the colliers and if he sees this will pobably have some info. on. Best of luck with the advanced education. Welcome to the site.Regards JS
Last edited by j.sabourn; 11th October 2022 at 12:29 PM.
R575129
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12th October 2022, 01:05 AM
#3
Re: WW2 Tyne Colliers
#2 A bit further elaboration on my PS. Whilst Cappy finishes his fishing from the Shields pier head where no doubt he won’t leave until he catches his quota. I spent 4 years working with a naval party so know a little about the difference in working conditions. Working for private enterprise is different in the fact that everything is based on running costs and your working life is spent around profit margins. Working for a government department one doesn’t have the same problems as are not there to make a profit. Let me say those 4 years where the easiest number in my case as regards workload. I have a high regard for the RN as some of their technicians are the best in the world ,and working on smaller vessels today cuts out a lot of the old stand overs of the past. Any problems personal wise that I saw never got past the Royal Navy petty officers . So maybe your commander of Western Approaches or whatever , should of put any problems in their hands. Cheers JS
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12th October 2022, 01:09 AM
#4
Re: WW2 Tyne Colliers
Hi Brian.
One of my last ships in the UK was a Collier in 57, and if you knew a collier Captain you would realise as to what they would have thought about the Navy telling them what to do and where to go. I was a newbie to the North East coast, but the Captain of the Corefleet the ship I was on was his own man so to speak. On leaving Newcastle on one trip to London he sailed close in to another ship coming in so he could doff his Bowler hat to another of the Companies ships Captains; and have a quick word through the loud hailer, that was the way they were.
Cheers Des
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Lest We Forget
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12th October 2022, 06:02 AM
#5
Re: WW2 Tyne Colliers
I like the loud hailer off Gravesend when a coaster went past showing total restraint
What Ship? GOODALL
Masters Name Woodall
What is your cargo We are in ballast this voyage.
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12th October 2022, 06:17 AM
#6
Re: WW2 Tyne Colliers
Senior Site Moderator-Member and Friend of this Website
R697530
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12th October 2022, 06:29 AM
#7
Re: WW2 Tyne Colliers
Originally Posted by
Colin Wood
I like the loud hailer off Gravesend when a coaster went past showing total restraint
What Ship? GOODALL
Masters Name Woodall
What is your cargo ? -We are in ballast this voyage.
I was still half asleep when I read this Colin,and after I 'got it' ,and after I wiped my spluttering mouthful of cornflakes off the wall,I can only imagine what his reply to the third question was.....".F...All!"Big ROFL (3).jpg
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12th October 2022, 06:38 AM
#8
Re: WW2 Tyne Colliers
#5. A bit like that American Congressman making a speech “ What we want is Institution, Constitution, and Pros...
..........perity . JS
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12th October 2022, 07:57 AM
#9
Re: WW2 Tyne Colliers
Going back to number one. Having experience on colliers and also convoys (Suez 56) it was always apparent that RN personnel, with a few exceptions, never understood the limitations of merchant vessels,
MN vessels never had the luxury of 'service speeds' and 'flank speeds' where-in they could ring down the engineroom and glibly go from 10 knots to 15/18 knots (your average escort corvette) upon demand in WWII.
The average coastal collier in WWII was an 8 -9 knotter and would be lucky to get an extra half knot from the C/E even by threat or coercion.
The hull characteristics of RN and MN vessels are completely different the RN vessels having a fine 'coefficient of fineness' (COF)and the MN vessel having a blunt COF required for greater cargo capacity.
The RN vessels are designed to have their propellers submerged at all times as their loaded/light displacement varies very little. The MN vessel does not have that luxury when loaded its prop is fully submerged but it is pushing a much heavier load, when in ballast its prop is half out of the water reducing its efficiency.
There are numerous other physical differences both in vessels and crew, the MN had one man to do three jobs, the RN had five men to do one job.
There are of course numerous books of both MN and RN which you will be familiar with that will explain all the differences.
Apart from all the vessels physical differences and abilities, there is the question of local knowledge of sand banks, tidal flows etc and no matter how many books the RN may read from the varioius editions of 'Pilots', nothing replaces local knowledge when on the EC UK, masters knew the abilities and numerous shortcomings of their colliers and used their experience to get from A to B in the safest manner, and had little respect from 'Johnny Newcomer' teaching them how to suck eggs, regardless of the RN's good intentions, or even misplaced intentions through lack of knowledge.
The Navy's actions in Convoy PQ17 never endeared the RN to the MN, they did not blame the RN sailor or Officer, but the RN Chain of Command, but of course it filters down.
Even today the various navies around the world do not understand the abilities of MN vessels as evidenced by the USA navy vessels trying to cut across the bows of MN vessels instead of obeying the 'Collision Regulations' (Rule 15 if I remember correctly) the Navy vessels underestimating the speed (18 -25 knots) of many current MN vessels and subsequently being checked in progress by the MN vessel.
I am sure you are probably aware of all the foregoing, but I have had experience of the superior RN attitude in real time.
Whoops! I forgot to mention Single screw for MN vessels and twin screw for MN vessels, anyway I hope some of the foregoing explains some difficulty by the MN in 'Station Keeping' so beloved by the RN.
Last edited by Ivan Cloherty; 12th October 2022 at 08:07 AM.
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12th October 2022, 03:31 PM
#10
Re: WW2 Tyne Colliers
Remember a tale in Common Bros. about a first trip apprentice leaving the Tyne in fog stationed on the bridge wing, the hailing station shouted “ what’s your name “ Wilfy Box replied the lad. On the subject of colliers, when on the mandatory defence course, mid 50,s held on the HMS Calliope, we had two old collier skippers who couldn’t care less. Lunch was usually followed by a trip to one of the many hostelries on Scotswood Rd.The afternoon session was consequently pretty dull, people dozing off. The RN Commander taking the course was struggling for attention when he mentioned submarines. “Oh aye we know al aboot them” muttered one skipper. “Oh really”says the Commander, thankful for some response,” Aye” says the skipper,” We sailed in them Flatties din,t we Geordie”
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