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Thread: WW2 Tyne Colliers

  1. #11
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    Default Re: WW2 Tyne Colliers

    #10 I did that course on HMS Calliope about 1960 John , I was second mate coming off a ship in Smith’s Drydock at midnight and the gates were locked so climbed over the wall and jumped and sprained an ankle. shipping doctor would not pass me fit for sea duties and I refusd to sign on the sick as the company wanted ,as was on contract and said it was their problem ,so they sent me for the merchant navy defence course on Calliope . At the end of the course we got 5 guineas from the Admiralty which I didn’t tell the Owners about or they would of had it off me. It was the time of the Cuban blockade so some of the info.came in useful .Apart from the ABC warfare and the 300 knot gunsights for 600 knot aircraft , the usual talks on convoy work which would be a repeat of the last war drew a lot of anti convoy from a lot of the students who had experienced it themselves during the hostility’s they had experienced. Anyhow I was 5 guineas richer and a lot wiser about life expectancy If war had been declared during that period. Today the world is closer to war than it even was during the Cuban crisis. Cheers JS,
    Last edited by j.sabourn; 13th October 2022 at 12:51 AM.
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  3. #12
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    Default Re: WW2 Tyne Colliers

    I sailed with a mate who had been on an old coal burner in WWII. She was always dropping behind the convoy, so the master would call the ER on the speaking tube, and say "dozen Bers at end of watch if we catchup'. They always did.

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    Default Re: WW2 Tyne Colliers

    Similar to another on a different. Tangent though . Examiner to candidate you area anchored in the NorthSea and start to drag what do you do? Cand. Pay out more cable, good says the examiner the wind freshens up to gale force what do you now do , lay another anchor says the candidate . You continue to drag and thewind veers 2 points what do you now do ? The wind is now gustingto storm force. Lay another anchor says the candidate. Hold on says the examiner , where are you getting all these anchors from ?. The same place your getting all these winds says the candidate , no doubt he got seatime for his efforts and hoping for a more pleasant examiner next time. JS
    Last edited by j.sabourn; 13th October 2022 at 07:18 AM.
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    Default Re: WW2 Tyne Colliers

    Thanks for this Ivan.
    your post gives a great summary of some of the issues. I'd like to make an attempt to investigate some of these further.
    Imagining an old collier (or any old cargo ship) in ballast in heavy seas, with its prop sometimes fully out of the water gives a powerful image. I especially like your paragraph on local knowledge: it creates in my mind an image of a crusty old master cursing a young RNVR commander for issuing some impossible order. My guess is that there wasn't always that friction and that pragmatism more often than not prevailed. it's a case of you only hear about things when they go wrong.
    I did a bit of work last year on the Arctic convoys. My next door neighbour's father was a gunner on HMS Marne, which escorted a number of them and I was able to use some of his collection, including his "Bluenose" certificate for crossing the Arctic circle. If I was being brutal, I'd say they were more important in allowing Churchill to placate Stalin than they were in supplying materiel for the Soviet war effort. As you say PQ17 was a complete balls-up, a result of the man at the top, Dudley Pound, making the completely wrong decision, paranoid about the German surface ships. It doesn't beat thinking about what some of those men had to endure. As a result, convoys were temporarily stopped, which really upset "Uncle Joe".
    Cheers, Brian

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    Default Re: WW2 Tyne Colliers

    Thanks Doc
    I'll have a look at naval-history.net.
    There's a good book written by Nick Hewitt: The Indestructible Highway: Coastal convoys 1939-45 and you may know of the series of books by Richard Woodman on the history of the merchant navy, going right back to Tudor times, I believe. Convoying, and East Coast wartime convoys in particular has had very little academic interest. perhaps they've not been regarded as 'sexy' enough.
    Cheers, Brian

    - - - Updated - - -

    Cheers Des.
    That's a nice little glimpse of the individuality of collier masters.

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    Default Re: WW2 Tyne Colliers

    One thing I was told years ago, whether true or not was that the Royal Navy’s fleet sizes were based on the number of British ships there were in the merchant fleet. I heard different views on the ratio of ship to ship as varied with who was telling the story but seemed about 5 to 1 , that was one naval vessel to 5 merchant vessels . The merchant fleets I had I heard during the war started off with well in excess of 3000 vessels I believe . Obviously the convoy system was to make sure that the protection of merchant ships was to receive the maximum protection with as few ships as possible as their services were required on other operations also. A recent post on the merchant navy defence course in 1960 , the Russians it was estimated had over 1000 operational submarines , when you consider Hitler only had about 400 operational U boats and only about 200 at sea at one time , don’t think there would be many merchant ships still floating. Apart from that ships sailing in convoy say over a 50 square mile area would have been taken out with one nuclear air blast. In 1960 the estimates of the casualty’s ashore and afloat would have put you
    off your beer . Today with all the advancements in weaponry it doesn’t bear thinking about it would be completo finito , or in. Hindi egdum kalas . Don’t imagine the climate would ever recover. JS
    Last edited by j.sabourn; 13th October 2022 at 12:43 PM.
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    Default Re: WW2 Tyne Colliers

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Pinkstone View Post
    Thanks for this Ivan.
    your post gives a great summary of some of the issues. I'd like to make an attempt to investigate some of these further.
    Imagining an old collier (or any old cargo ship) in ballast in heavy seas, with its prop sometimes fully out of the water gives a powerful image. I especially like your paragraph on local knowledge:
    It is difficult to convey what the attitude of what may or may not have been in the WWII Coastal Master's minds, but from my own experience the Coastal owner had not moved on in the 50's from the 30's and 40's, your navigational equipment being limited to a magnetic compass and echo sounder (invariably out of order), a gyro and radar were a definite no-no, even more so in the 30's/40's although escort corvettes were so equipped (40's).

    One company I sailed with, which will remain nameless the navigational equipment was a magnetic compass, a general chart of the whole East coast of the UK from the Pentland Firth to Dover Straits and a Brown's Almanac to aid with the recognition of lights (I didn't stay long, I was intent on staying alive). Most Masters, because their vessels were underpowered, for a variety of reasons, lack of maintenance, hull fouling, lousy steam coal, tipped propellers etc, could not even maintain their designed speed and were normally a couple of knots under that, so a 10 knot vessel would average 8 knots plus a bit. You could not afford to go the long way round outside the 'Banks' Coming from Methil or the Tyne you would set course for Spurn Point (Humber) and then try and take advantage of the 'Tidal Races' between the Banks to the Wash (Wells) then Great Yarmouth. Felixstowe to assist your passage to catch the slack water at high tide at your berth in London, as missing the tide meant a 12 hour delay. Some of the Masters took this route as opposed to convoys because in their opinion it was safer than 'E-Boat Alley' (The convoy route) as even E-Boats with their 3 to 4 foot draught kept clear of the Banks. However the coastal Masters priority was always to catch the tide, no matter what port, to get his vessel alongside and discharged, in the Thames it was essential with berths drying out and no chance of berthing, even in ballast you had restricted sailing times, normally just a couple of hours before high water, and if going under the bridges to Battersea your tidal awareness was even mor important.


    Others on here have greater and later experience of the area, albeit I suspect with better navigational aids and more power.

    I served in the Arctic on trawlers in the early 50's and I do not envy those boys on the Arctic convoys

    As for station keeping along the east Coast, probably very difficult as when you did go outside the Banks you were sometimes steaming 4 points off your charted course to maintain that course when stemming a 3-4 knot current in inclement weather, so keeping station would not be a priority, your priority was catching the tide and I suppose that held during wartime also, if not more so, as no crew/vessel would want to be a sitting duck at anchor (waiting for a berth) during bombing raids, having been bombed out three times it is something (if you're lucky) you will remember.

    There are some seamen on here who have greater vintage than myself who will be able to recount their experience, but we are getting long in the tooth, well some of them are as some have joined the plastic revolution!

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    Default Re: WW2 Tyne Colliers

    Hi Ivan.
    I don't know a lot about navigation as I was only an AB, but I had a great time on the small coastal tanker Leadsman, one time while turning in towards Wisbech
    the Skipper said to me. "Keep her steady," I. going to do some dhobying and off he went, to appear as we headed in towards the river mouth.
    Des
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    Default Re: WW2 Tyne Colliers

    #18 . Don’t cut yourself short Des .,Earl Mountbatten was Admiral of the fleet and he was a Radio man . A lot of skippers on the coast were ex ABs .I knew one years ago with no fancy certificates , I myself have made up two to bosun / 2 mate , partly for my own convenience but had absolute trust in them , one carried on to master on the coast . Knowledge is not always in a piece of paper as is believed today. JS
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    Default Re: WW2 Tyne Colliers

    If the British Royal Navy ship numbers are based on British MN ships then I guess the country will have to rely on USA or others for help.
    No MN ships so why do you need RN ones??
    Happy daze John in Oz.

    Life is too short to blend in.

    John Strange R737787
    World Traveller

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