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Thread: Joseph Knight - Liverpool - Dock Board Labourer

  1. #41
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    Default Re: Joseph Knight - Liverpool - Dock Board Labourer

    Quote Originally Posted by Marian Gray View Post
    Hi Douglas, reading between the lines as there isn't much else I'm thinking there was no marriage, since nothing can be found. Also the death details for Joseph Knight going by your date are scarce to say the least. Have printed the only one I have found, no mention of Annie though! Only Margaret!

    Also found death info for an Annie Barry 1977 does that tie in with your wife's recollection? Have nothing else to offer I'm afraid unless more details are forthcoming....Will though look at the Tan thread see if you can be helped there.

    Any questions on the info below just ask.

    From FMP:

    First name(s) Joseph
    Last name Knight
    Death year 1937
    Death date 13 Feb 1937
    Probate year 1937
    Probate date 15 May 1937
    Residence town Birkenhead
    Registry Liverpool
    County Cheshire
    Linked persons MARGARET WALKER
    Country England

    Possibility too Doug that Joseph may have joined a ship?

    From Ancestry:

    Name: Anne Barry
    Death Age: 76
    Birth Date: abt 1903
    Death Date: 1979
    Burial Date: 8 Jun 1979
    Burial Place: Ford Cemetery, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
    This Annie Barry, appears to have died in Walton Hospital, as it given as her address. Grave/Lair No EX 683


    Marion, you do a great job at research and get the reply all in one, not dozens.
    great stuff, keep at it.
    Happy daze John in Oz.

    Life is too short to blend in.

    John Strange R737787
    World Traveller

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  3. #42
    Keith at Tregenna's Avatar
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    Default Re: Joseph Knight - Liverpool - Dock Board Labourer

    Long way off the desired result yet, the team work is essential. We all have different fortes. The combination
    usually helps much. Touch wood we will find more between us. Hopefully research post can remain just for research to save confusion.

    K.

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  5. #43
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    Default Re: Joseph Knight - Liverpool - Dock Board Labourer

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith at Tregenna View Post
    Interesting, other names and initials could help.

    Was May an only child ?

    K.

    .
    As far as we know yes, May was an only child. My wife's mother believes her grandmother (Annie) may also be an only child but we cannot determine this yet.

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  7. #44
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    Default Re: Joseph Knight - Liverpool - Dock Board Labourer

    OK. Cheers. Keith.

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    Default Re: Joseph Knight - Liverpool - Dock Board Labourer

    Hello everyone again. I'm back with an minor update, I have purchased my wife's grandmothers marriage certificate - image attached.

    Not a whole lot of new information about her dad (my wife's great granddad) other than to confirm his name as Joseph Knight (deceased) but with added info that he worked as a 'Dock Gateman' - whatever that is beyond stating the obvious. I'm hoping that's a little more specific to help find him (somehow).

    What is of potential interest is the names of the marriage witnesses: Mary Kinsella and Annie Thomas.

    I suspect Annie Thomas is Annie Knight (May's mother) but haven't been able to confirm as yet.

    And we're aware of an Aunt of my wife's mother, called Kitty Kinsella who is related to Annie but not entirely sure of the link. Kitty apparently had a son called John who married a girl called Pat, and a daughter named Karen. Unfortunately we don't have any years to associated with these names.


    Last edited by Doc Vernon; 29th January 2021 at 08:27 PM.

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  10. #46
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    Default Re: Joseph Knight - Liverpool - Dock Board Labourer

    Not certain if this site could be useful?

    Liverpool & SW Lancashire FHS - Forum

    https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=16096

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  12. #47
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    Default Re: Joseph Knight - Liverpool - Dock Board Labourer

    Okay, so I figured I'd try to recap by way of a timeline what I know of Annie Barry - Joseph Knights wife. Would love to hear people's thoughts and recommendations on where to explore next.

    1926;
    - May Knight is born to Joseph Knight & Annie Knight (formerly Barry). Birth certificate previously shared.
    - No marriage certificate can be found for Joseph & Annie.
    - They lived at 42 Warren Street, Liverpool.

    1937-1939;
    - We know from Maureen Tan that her granddad (Joseph Knight) died when May was a young teenager, possibly between 11-13 years old.

    1939;
    - There is no sign of Joseph & Annie Knight on the 1939 register.
    - May would have been about 13/14 years old, and I suspect was evacuated from Liverpool in the September of 1939 prior to the war.
    - It's perhaps for this reason that she's not found on the 1939 register, or because of her age the record is redacted from public viewing.
    - At this moment, we are unable to find 1) a death record for Joseph Knight, or 2) a divorce record for Joseph and Annie.
    - There is a record for Annie Barrie, born 1897, on the 1939 register what looks to be living alone. Can anyone make out the name of the road?

    1940;
    - With May being evacuated, Annie now a widow. Would Annie have reverted back to her maiden name, Barry?
    - With the likelihood of living alone and needing independent financial support without her husband; Annie gets married to George Thomas.

    1941;
    Warren Street in Liverpool was destroyed in bombings.

    1943;
    - May Knight (17 years old) gets married to Jan Ming Tan (29 years old).
    - Marriage witnesses are Mary Kinsella, and Annie Thomas. I've previously posted a picture of the marriage certificate. Was it a requirement to have parental permission to marry if under 18?
    - Maureen Tan was born.

    1944;
    - George Thomas dies in WW2
    - Annie Thomas reverts back to being Annie Barry?

    1957;
    - Annie Barry dies. This suggests being born around 1895.
    - Place of death = Crosby
    - Maureen Tan would have been about 14 years old. I need to ask Maureen if she can remember how old she was when her grandmother died.
    - Not being 100% confident this is the same Annie Barry, do I chance purchasing the death certificate in the hope that May Knight is listed "as the name and address of informant and possibly their relationship to the deceased" given she is an only child and there is no husband/partner to Annie.


    I appreciate there are flaws here without concrete evidence to support. My main focus is the Annie Thomas as witness on May Knights marriage certificate and thinking this is the same Annie Barry. Speculative I know but shouldn't a 17 year old girl have some family witness their marriage?!

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  14. #48
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    Default Re: Joseph Knight - Liverpool - Dock Board Labourer

    Cheers Doug, hope we find the key ASAP.
    Touch wood a few more finds may tie all in.

    Keith.

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    Default Re: Joseph Knight - Liverpool - Dock Board Labourer

    Without wanting to interfere, as to a previous assertion that I was aware of Two familys out here with the surname Knight. Also bearing in mind kids were evacuated out here during the war years for safety and as a living proof of this I have drinks every 4th Thursday with one now in his 90s. Any youngsters disappearing just prior to the war and in the early parts may have left the country. And may be the reason why no trace can be found. JS
    R575129

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    Default Re: Joseph Knight - Liverpool - Dock Board Labourer

    Quote Originally Posted by Marian Gray View Post
    Hi Doug, few lists for you to ponder re May's mum, Annie. All from FMP

    Possibility? Annie Barry Irish b Ballylogue, Co. Wexford

    Passenger Lists Leaving UK 1890-1960

    Next suggestion, which I try to avoid but all I can find for you to ponder.
    My only query with passenger lists is the fact that Annie would have returned to Liverpool to give birth to May Knight in 1926. Quite an expensive trip going to New York or India for that matter I would have thought back then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marian Gray View Post

    1939 Census

    Anny Barry: 1939 133 Beatrice Street, Bootle, Bootle C.B., Lancashire, England

    Anny Barry 01 Mar 1903 Female Shop Assist (G? Hosiery) Single 68 1
    Thomas C Barry 12 Apr 1916 Male Labourer (Heavy Work) Single 68 2
    Brother??
    Were not aware of a brother. Maureen seems to think that Annie may have been an only child but in all honesty we don’t know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marian Gray View Post

    Also a couple of entries to the Liverpool Workhouse:


    First name(s) Annie
    Last name Barry


    This one is for, Ann Barry:

    First name(s) Ann
    Last name Barry
    Year 1907

    Records year range 1897-1913

    HM Prison Liverpool - wikipedia.org › wiki › HM_Prison_Liverpool
    Sorry, not sure what these records are.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Marian Gray View Post
    ...Yes...

    At some point in order to move forward and to save going round in circles I would have purchased a birth & death cert for Annie by now as it's not possible to build a tree without one of them at least. Also they can supply info that you are unaware of as yet, which can be a real surprise and spur you on with renewed vigor Well it works for me

    I'm thinking Annie & Joseph were probably not married, therefore no guarantee that he died in your time frame either. He possibly just left the scene at that point and that's why she reverted back to her maiden
    name, most rellies will tell a few porkers to smooth their paths along the way!


    Please answer my post#51 Q3 ASAP. The name Kinsella could be a massive clue. Also see Jan Ming Tan thread.Thank you
    Happy to buy Annie’s birth, marriage, death certificate but which one?

    Interesting point about Joseph perhaps not having died and that May would have been told this for convenience. That puts a spanner in the works, more so if he and Annie were not married as suggested (despite Mays birth certificate).

    We believe Kinsella is a close family friend. Maureen is aware of a Kitty Kinsella but we don’t know the link as yet.
    Last edited by Doc Vernon; 31st January 2021 at 08:29 PM.

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