Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 23

Thread: Greetings everyone - interested about workload caused by collision avoidance

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    bereldange
    Posts
    7
    Thanks (Given)
    5
    Thanks (Received)
    5
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    11

    Default Greetings everyone - interested about workload caused by collision avoidance

    Hi everyone,

    I am a bit of an intruder here in the way that my goal by registering in this forum is to better assess the workload (if significant) at the level of the bridge of a large merchant ship caused by the need to detect and avoid sailing vessels in place like the Channel during the summer months.

    Any feed back at that level would be very welcome and feed back will be provided to a sailing enthusiast site as to better cooperate and not to put ourselves in a position that is causing trouble to bridge officers.

    For example, is that (collision avoidance) workload is significant yes/no, what are the most "annoying" sailing vessels "behaviours" you experienced, are sailing vessels equipped with a (switched on) AIS transponder un real help to you. Would you be in favor to make AIS transponder a mandatory equipment for sailing vessels cruising in busy shipping lanes such as in the English Channel etc.

    If I posted this in the wrong place I would very much appreciate being redirected to the right place !

    Thank you very much in advance !

    Pierre

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Varsity Lakes, Gold Coast Qld
    Posts
    707
    Thanks (Given)
    583
    Thanks (Received)
    435
    Likes (Given)
    802
    Likes (Received)
    2226

    Default Re: Greetings everyone - interested about workload caused by collision avoidance

    When I was at sea on cargo ships, you never had any spare watch keepers tobe able to double up on the bridge team. On one ship in dense fog in the channel we did double up the lookouts by posting the deck day workers but with today's manning scales it is doubtful if you have enough bodies on board to be able to do that, as many do not have enough to even keep continuous lookouts.
    AS regards to AIS I beieve that every small craft operating in waters regularly used by commercial shipping should have them fitted as basic equipment.

  3. Thanks Doc Vernon, pierrevan thanked for this post
  4. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Torquay
    Posts
    11,467
    Thanks (Given)
    3440
    Thanks (Received)
    7758
    Likes (Given)
    11953
    Likes (Received)
    34924

    Default Re: Greetings everyone - interested about workload caused by collision avoidance

    Pierre

    Not many serving (probably) on this site, as most of us are retired and some of us for a very long time. I haven't read the Collision Regulations for a long time, but if the rules have not changed that much then the first step is education of some irresponsible pleasure sailors who may still have the attitude that 'steam gives way to sail' and have no idea that even in mid channel, never mind river and estuary passages many large vessels are limited by their draught in what they can and cannot do to take avoiding action, never mind their stopping ability. The Solent was always a place where-in yachtsmen thought they had the divine right to operate steam gives way to sail rule and ignored the local byelaws that they must keep clear of the main shipping channel. Everytime we entered the Solent we had to resort to rigging fire hoses on the foc'le head, P & S with fire fighting pressure and that kept them away from us, transiting the Solent during the lead up to Cowes week was a particularily trying time with everyman and his dog on the water, normally with the dog at the helm, so first step for any budding channel crossers or waterway pleasure seekers is the educate them into the other vessels limitations and that a commercial vessel has the inability to jibe.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Bolton UK
    Posts
    15,004
    Thanks (Given)
    20832
    Thanks (Received)
    11089
    Likes (Given)
    30414
    Likes (Received)
    37116

    Default Re: Greetings everyone - interested about workload caused by collision avoidance

    Grotty Yotties or Kamikaze yachtsmen are a ...... nuisance in the Channel and the Solent,
    First day of Cowes Week in 1977,Sunday Morning, I was bringing in a 256,000 ton Tanker from the Persian Gulf, bound for Fawley
    We had " Clear Channel, " the Pilt on board, me on watch, and Master on the Bridge, SPR Broadcast that we had Clear Channel and keep away, the Pilot boat ahead of us with strobe lights, and loud haler shouting to the yotties to Keep Clear,
    I was blasting on the whistle, and on they came.
    You could not see water for canvas,
    They were Bouncing off our sides, masts collapsing, screaming, several were sunk, peopl screaming in the water. It was a shambles.
    We could not take evasive action due to our draft.
    I have never seen so many stupid people at one place at the same time.
    I know we sank several yachts.
    TOUGH.
    Cheers
    Brian

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    bereldange
    Posts
    7
    Thanks (Given)
    5
    Thanks (Received)
    5
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    11

    Default Re: Greetings everyone - interested about workload caused by collision avoidance

    Thank you for feed back, I can indeed undoubtly imagine the Solent being a challenge, now what about the middle of the Channel shipping lanes ?
    Did you experience there some unwanted interractions with sailing yachts ? What would be the state of mind of a deck officer while entering the Channel during summer months ? Would it be "Oh dear, we will again need to perform extra lookout for those crazy yachts" or that would only be in very specific places as you mention ? (Solent).
    Any thoughts about use of AIS transponder as being a significant help for deck officers ease of mind in areas where encountering sailing vessels is likely ?

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    bereldange
    Posts
    7
    Thanks (Given)
    5
    Thanks (Received)
    5
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    11

    Default Re: Greetings everyone - interested about workload caused by collision avoidance

    Thank you for feed back Colin, I note you are in favor of small craft operating in busy waters to be equipped with AIS.
    When fog situation in the Channel, I take it that the doubling up of the lookouts was aimed to small crafts assuming larger targets were visible on the radar right ?
    Any anecdote regarding interaction(s) with sailing vessels at sea (thus not in super busy place such as Solent) where you wish the sailing vessel acted differently ? (can be from not replying to radio calls to erratic course changing or no course changing at all)

  8. Thanks Doc Vernon thanked for this post
    Likes Denis O'Shea liked this post
  9. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Bolton UK
    Posts
    15,004
    Thanks (Given)
    20832
    Thanks (Received)
    11089
    Likes (Given)
    30414
    Likes (Received)
    37116

    Default Re: Greetings everyone - interested about workload caused by collision avoidance

    The biggest danger of Yachts in the Channel were the ones sailing from France with a belly full of Brandy. many are asleep and no signs of life as we passed closely.
    I suspect that many yachts get hit.
    Brian

  10. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Torquay
    Posts
    11,467
    Thanks (Given)
    3440
    Thanks (Received)
    7758
    Likes (Given)
    11953
    Likes (Received)
    34924

    Default Re: Greetings everyone - interested about workload caused by collision avoidance

    #5 A responsible OOW is always alert, whether in open water, Straits, Channels, Traffic Separation or rivers, you deal with traffic as it appears, because there is always someone who breaks the rules, professional or weekend sailors, so alertness comes with the job (or it did) as it part of self preservation as well as caring for others on deck, in the accommodation, or down the engineroom.

    AIS should be considered an aid, not a solution, unfortunately a lot of navigators rely on AIDS rather than what nature/biology gave them, for which there is no reliable substitute yet invented and AIS echoes may add to clutter on the PPI of the radar. Enclosed bridges on modern ships are no help, because in a recent court case (vessel A) the angled windows on the bridge of 'A' lengthened the approaching vessel's (B) apparent distance, and it was not a case of inexperienced personnel, there was a Humber Pilot, Master, Chief Officer on the bridge of 'A' but none had bothered to check the PPI where-in it 'would' have been an aid, or least make them aware something was amiss, but no doubt no one would have given a thought to the angled windows (who would?) that is why an open bridge wing should be mandatory, as stepping on the wing would have allowed their eyes to give a true situation, rather than a perceived one. Unfortunately vessel 'A' collided with 'B' and it was only in the subsequent inquiry it was found that a naval architects streamline whim was to blame.

    There is no easy answer, human error whether self inflicted or unintentionally introduced will feature at some stage. Alas in these days with reduced crews, as others have mentioned, doubling lookouts, as we did in the old days, would be nigh impossible. In the 50's 60's yachts and pleasure craft had radar reflectors fitted to their masts, but these were virtually useless as they got lost in the clutter on the PPI, and reducing the clutter to try and locate large objects also removed the radar reflectors reflecting ability.

    Te only real solution is, use what mother nature gave you, every thing else is an AID and not foolprooof.

  11. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Location
    bereldange
    Posts
    7
    Thanks (Given)
    5
    Thanks (Received)
    5
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    11

    Default Re: Greetings everyone - interested about workload caused by collision avoidance

    Ivan, thank you for this very interesting post.

  12. Thanks Ivan Cloherty thanked for this post
    Likes Doc Vernon liked this post
  13. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Shields
    Posts
    5,203
    Thanks (Given)
    480
    Thanks (Received)
    6079
    Likes (Given)
    4096
    Likes (Received)
    14782

    Default Re: Greetings everyone - interested about workload caused by collision avoidance

    Most of us on the site, now retired, generally agree that the level of competence amongst today's navigation officers has decreased whilst the level of incompetence in the yachting fraternity has increased.
    Today's navigators are presented with almost overload of electronic information, having to monitor navigation, collision avoidance, engine room performance in UMS fitted vessels, A.I.S display, ECDIS and GMDSS.
    Having sailed as master on chemical tankers for high on 20 years mainly around the U.K. and near continental coasts, I came across examples of the yachting fraternity ignorance of how merchant vessels of all sizes operate. Most yachting people seem to think that all ships can turn on a sixpence and stop on a dime. They see ships with twin radar scanners turning and think that the bridge watch keeper will be observing them on their radar screens. Not so, even with an X band and a S band radar sailing vessels can be lost in sea clutter or Shadow sectors. Just having a radar reflector fitted is no guarantee that you will be picked up on a vessels radar. Having an A.I.S. fitted will mean you will be seen on the A.I.S. display screen which may or may not be also linked to the radar display.
    Today's navigation officers are of a generation that grew up in a world run by electronic systems and forget that their own eyesight is the most important anti collision system available to them, coupled with the ability of being able to reduce speed in order to give themselves more time to assess the situation, which many seem terrified to do.
    In separation zones do they monitor VTS broadcasting? Do they realise that merchant vessels crossing the lanes their Track, not heading, is at right angles to the general direction of traffic flow? And if their yachts, have to cross the shipping lanes why attempt to do it under sail? If fitted, lower their sails and motor across, you will have more control of your yacht and you will only be under power for a couple of hours at the most. Also having A.I.S. fitted will greatly assist any emergency services to locate you should you run into difficulty.
    Rgds
    J.A.
    Last edited by John Arton; 26th August 2020 at 01:31 PM.

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •