Neil Wales

[Jeanette Hoffie]

Hello and thanks for adding me to the site.

My uncle, Neil Wales, dob 14 Mar 1921 in Glasgow joined the Merchant Navy, early 1941 or before. He related a story of his ship having been torpedoed off the coast of West (?) Africa, being picked up and taken to a POW camp. He escaped from the camp and walked to Freetown where he was shipped back to Britain.
I have found some information in passenger lists but would like to be able to form a more complete picture and, if possible, confirm the details of the attack on his ship. The details I have are:

1941
Left Freetown aboard the Banfora and arrived Liverpool 4 July.
21/8 Glasgow aboard the Empire Swan, arriving New York 4 Sept
1/11 Glasgow aboard the Empire Swan, arriving New York 18 Nov

1942
29/1 Bristol aboard Empire Swan, arriving New York 17 Feb

1943 Empress of Scotland
Left Gourock and arrived New York 27 Feb
Left Liverpool and arrived New York 13 Apr
Left Casablanca and arrived New York 16 Aug

1944
17 June, left Gourock aboard The Queen Mary for New York

Neil's discharge number is R235119.

I dont believe the above is a complete list. All the ships I found and have mentioned survived the war (thankfully). I'd like to try and find more information about the ship he was on when it was attacked. Having looked at other postings, I see reference to a document (sorry, forgotten the name of it) available at Kew however, I'm in Scotland and unlikely to be near Kew any time soon. They're not digitized and there's a cost for a search,which I'm happy to pay if I'm reasonably sure that it has more information on it that I cant get online elsewhere. Can anybody help with pointing me in the right direction?

[Doc Vernon]

Hello Jeanette (Always reminds me of the great (J MacDonald Movie Actress)

Anyway welcome to the site and thanks for joining and posing your question to us all here!

To start have you got his Medal Card?? This is downloadable for 3.50 GBP at the following Link,if interested
Medal listing of Wales, Neil Discharge number: R.235119 Date of Birth: 14... | The National Archives

As you sat you think that there are more Ships than what you have,his CRS10 will definitely hold all his Ships and Service Record
His Seamans Pouch which I don't know if you have will contain some info but not all,and is just that, The Pouch is also downloadable from the NA, the search fee start to see if these Documents still exist is 8.50 GBP each .

Seamans Pouch us here just follow Instructions
R235119 WALES N 14/03/1921 GLASGOW | The National Archives

I will look up his CRS10 and post as soon as I have it.
I will also look futher into what you ask about!
Cheers

[Doc Vernon]

His CRS10 should be in this Section at the NA.

Reference:	BT 382/3194
Description:	Tillotson N to Waters J I
Date:	1941 Jan 01 - 1950 Dec 31

Tillotson N to Waters J I | The National Archives

These CRS10 Documents are best seen in person ,as there is always a lot of replies to people that it is either not available or cannot do it for some reason?? But I myself have found that if noted on their Website it will be there! Just need time to search for it yourself
Cheers

Added
There seems to be an overlap with his records ?? The above shows from 1941 to 1950

Then this other Section shows from 1946 to 1972 qhic I have found to be the normal for these CRS10 Records

Wale A to Walker D S | The National Archives

Reference:	BT 382/3006
Description:	Wale A to Walker D S
Date:	1941 Jan 01 - 1972 Dec 31

[Jeanette Hoffie]

Hello
Thanks for your reply.

I did have his medal card until it disappeared along with the rest of the hard drive on my PC. I can download it again.

It looks like the seamans pouch and CSR10 are the best way to go. I live in Edinburgh so I cant go and search for them myself. I'll just hope the NA staff find them and can send a digital copy. In your experience, is there likely to be CSR10 docs in both of the sections? I'm not sure when he left the MN but suspect it was before he got married in 1946. I've been reading a wee bit about the MN during WW2 in particular the Banfora. I see it was captured by the Dunnotar Castle and taken to Freetown. An article I read said that it left Freetown manned by some of the 400/500 men waiting for transport back to UK with the rest as passengers. It also says that The Criton left Freetown at the same time as The Banfora but had to turn back, after which it was attacked and destroyed by enemy ships. The dates on the Banfora passenger (not crew) list I found for Neil correspond with convoy SL77, according to Arnold Hague's database but the Criton is listed under convoy SL78. Is this likely, if they both left Freetown at the same time? It seems the Banfora, which also had a number of RAF officers on board, was fitted as a personnel ship AFTER it returned to Liverpool in July 1941. It's possible that Neil was one of the released (escaped?) internees that were waiting for transport back to Britain. i assume the CSR10 is the only way of finding out. Thanks again for the help. I'll no doubt have a hundred other questions once I see these CSR1o and pouch.

PS
Oo-Oo-Oo-Oo, Oo-Oo-Oo-Oo
When I'm calling you
Oo-Oo-Oo-Oo, Oo-Oo-Oo-Oo
Will you answer too?

[Doc Vernon]

Hello Jeanette
Yes there should be Records in both Archine Section of his ,as for not being able to go in Person that is a setback I feel ,as in my experiences and many others they are not too crash hot at the NA as far as finding the CRS10 Records,dont know why as they have the Record Number??
But I suppose worth a try anyway,normally it is far better (a bit more costly though) to get a good researcher to do this for you.
Best of Luck anyway and do let us know how things go!
Cheers

[Keith at Tregenna]

First look sounds like your relative.

Neil Wales

6th Engineer

Glasgow - 14.3.1921

Name
Neil Wales
Event Type
Immigration
Event Date
1944
Event Place
New York City, New York, United States
Birthplace
Glasgow
Ship Name
Cilicia

record-image_3QS7-994G-KPJ.jpg

Regards,

Keith.

Citing this Record
"New York, New York Passenger and Crew Lists, 1909, 1925-1957," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2HSH-T3C : 15 March 2018), Neil Wales, 1944; citing Immigration, New York City, New York, United States, NARA microfilm publication T715 (Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.).

.

[Doc Vernon]

Just of interest I served on that same Ship the Dunnottar Castle but of course well after the war.
She was a great old Ship and had a good time on her,pity though that it was only the one trip that being her last as the Dunnottar into KG5 from Cape Town then sold to the Italians and carried on Sailing for quite a number of Years as the Victoria.

https://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/3354.html

[Doc Vernon]

I only get these records Jeanette ?

CRITON (Fr)

52

4,564

1927

Iron Ore

SCUTTLED BY PRIZE CREW SL 78

BANFORA (Br)

32

9,472

1914

Groundnuts

FITTED AS PERSONNEL SHIP ON ARRIVAL SL 77

??????

[Keith at Tregenna]

I have a few more to double check similar to #6.

All 1943 / 1944.

iNC -

Name
Neil Wales
Event Type
Immigration
Event Date
1943
Event Place
New York City, New York, United States
Gender
Male
Age
21
Birth Year (Estimated)
1922
Birthplace
Gt Britain
Ship Name
Empress Of Scotland

record-image_3QS7-L942-H4WB.jpg

K.

.

[Keith at Tregenna]

Neil Wales
New York, New York Passenger and Crew Lists, 1909

Name
Neil Wales
Event Type
Immigration
Event Date
1944
Event Place
New York City, New York, United States
Gender
Male
Age
23
Birth Year (Estimated)
1921
Birthplace
Scotland
Ship Name
Queen Mary

record-image_3QS7-L94G-KP6.jpg