Hello

[Valerie Moseley]

Just a quick update, I phoned Leith Port Authority and was transferred to the Habour Master, now at first they didn't know what I was talking about, however the lady spoke to someone there and he said, that either in the late 80's or early 90's the upgrading of certificates and so on was moved to the Glasgow College of Nautical Studies. Unfortunately, they don't have my uncle on record there, which means either, Leith Port didn't transfer records or, I misheard the lady when she said Leith !

Anyway, hopefully this information might help anybody else on the forum looking for people.

Valerie x

[John Arton]

Valarie
The Nautical Colleges will not release information on the students who studied there prior to taking their Nautical Licences. The MCA (a executive body of the U.K. Dept. for Transport) is the body that overseas all the issuing of Marine Certificates in the U.K. and the various Nautical Colleges around the U.K. are funded by fees charged to their students that study at the college. In the past and also today some companies would pay those fees for any of their personnel attending a college to study in order to gain their "tickets". These "tickets" were (for Deck Officers) 2nd Mates (this qualified you to keep a navigation watch on your own), Chief Officers (this additionally showed that you could load and stow cargo correctly and ensure that the ship was in a stable condition), Masters (This allowed you to take command of a Merchant Vessel).
To obtain any of those tickets you had to sit written examinations in a number of subjects including Navigation, Cargo Handling, Maritime Law, Chart work etc. and the higher up you progressed the subjects were relevant to each grade. Additionally you had to sit an oral examination for each ticket, the oral exam being tailored to the relevant ticket.
Both the written and oral exams were undertaken in Dept. of Transport buildings under the supervision of Dept. of Transport Marine Superintendents.
It was possible to sit your tickets without attending a nautical college but many examiners would take a dim view of any candidate who had not attended a Marine College prior to presenting themselves for the exams.
Generally you were not tied to any particular college (most of us chose the one nearest to where we lived or had the best reputation) nor to any particular examination centre. You could also specify the Mercantile Marine Office where, if you were successful, you wanted your new ticket to be issued.
In the 90's there was a sea change in the taking of and issuing of Marine Tickets.
Prior to that a ticket issued by the U.K. was considered the best ticket going, whereas certain other countries would issue a similar ticket without you having to attend a college or even take an exam.
In an attempt to eradicate seafarers sailing with less than perfect qualifications the I.M.O. introduced the "Standards of Training and Certification of Watchkeepers) in 94 and this set an international standard that all seafarers, irrespective of country of issue, were expected to reach in order to pass the exams, which again had an international set of subjects in them.
This was further enhanced by the need to revalidate your ticket every 5 years by proving that you have been at sea in Rank for at least 3 of the previous 5 years. Further it introduced special endorsements required to enable you to sail on certain types of vessels (Tankers, Chemical Tankers, Passenger Vessels).
The Ports of Leith and Aberdeen could have been where your relative studied prior to taking his tickets or it may just have been the most convenient port for him to collect his tickets from.
His discharge book number would remain the same throughout the time he spent at sea with the "R" that preceded his discharge number being these days preceded by U.K. If he had sat his tickets in Hong Kong then he would have sat exactly the same exams as if he had sat his exams in the U.K. with H.K. being a Crown Protectorate, and his ticket would look exactly the same as one issued in the U.K. with the exception of the wording, it having been issued by the Government of Hong Kong.
These days all tickets conform to a world wide standard and it is difficult to spot where they are issued.
rgds
JA

[Valerie Moseley]

Hi John,

Thank you so much for all that information, that explains everything. It's very kind of you to take the time.

I have just noticed you are from South Shields, when my dad was at sea, he used to sail out of there. He left the Merchant Navy in 1960 when my sister was born, but I remember we went to visit one of his ex ship mates who lived in Vespasian Avenue in South Shields. Again, I was only a child then, but I loved the name of the Avenue, It's strange what sticks in your mind !

Thank you again for all your help,

Valerie x

[John Arton]

Hi John,

Thank you so much for all that information, that explains everything. It's very kind of you to take the time.

I have just noticed you are from South Shields, when my dad was at sea, he used to sail out of there. He left the Merchant Navy in 1960 when my sister was born, but I remember we went to visit one of his ex ship mates who lived in Vespasian Avenue in South Shields. Again, I was only a child then, but I loved the name of the Avenue, It's strange what sticks in your mind !

Thank you again for all your help,

Valerie x

Valarie
Although I have lived the majority of my life in South Shields, I was born in Southport, Lancs, lived in Gibraltar for a couple of years and was brought up from age 4 in the Lake District.
My reason for ending up in South Shields was that when it was time for me to attend college prior to taking 2nd Mates my cousin (a Lloyds surveyor) lived in Newcastle at the time and offered me free accommodation so that's why I went up to South Shields to study and take 2nd Mates.
Going back to study for my Chief Officers ticket I actually stayed in B & B in the next road to Vespasian Avenue and had a couple of pals who lived on it.
The inevitable happened when taking Chief Officers ticket, met, fell in love with and married a local girl and so have been here since then.
rgds
JA

[Hugh]

She did say that was just for officers though, you will know better than I do Hugh, but I took that to mean Captain, 1st, 2nd, I am not even sure if there is a 3rd Mate, but that sort of thing.

Thank you Valerie.
These will be from the Lloyd's Captains Register which does indeed record the service of Master's and Mates (well precisely, Master, Mate & Second Mate, not the Third Mate).

Regards
Hugh

[j.sabourn]

During your relations time at sea, there were only 4 foreign going Bridge certificates as such. They Were Master F.G. (steamship) 1st. mate F.G. (steamship) 2nd. Mate F.G. ( steamship) there was also an Extra masters certificate which entailed other subjects outside of purely maritime studies, which included Economic Geography and the likes of Oceanography, which most Nautical surveyors had to have if working for a government ministry. This used to entail in your relations time about 2 years in a nautical establishment to obtain. There were also 2 home trade certificates Master and Mate Home Trade. Your person you are looking for could well have taking his masters British certificate abroad Hong Kong, Australia, Canada, or any of the ex Colonys of the UK. He could also more than likely received a foreign masters certificate on the strength of his British 1st. Mates certificate. I received a Liberian cert. a Panamanian cert. a Caymans Island cert. and probably others I have forgotten about when sailing under those flags, just by shown a British cert. Today that has all changed and there is a different certificate structure supposedly to keep up with the times but to my mind they have taken the lowest denominator and applied that to all, to give 3rd world countries a fair go. A British cert at one time had a failing paper in English, that I believe disappeared a long time ago, probably when all such things were being discussed in Brussels. Best Regards JWS

[j.sabourn]

Add to the previous good ones to Question if they are still in vogue, Would be World Wide Shipping and Harley Mullion both of Hong Kong. It was still fairly easy to get jobs with them in the 60"s. You might try the Internet first to see if they are still going. They weren't the first class types by any means especially Harley Mullions, I worked for one of his sons once with drastic results, knew 2 blokes with World Wide Shipping though and they seemed to be content with. Regards JWS

[Valerie Moseley]

Add to the previous good ones to Question if they are still in vogue, Would be World Wide Shipping and Harley Mullion both of Hong Kong. It was still fairly easy to get jobs with them in the 60"s. You might try the Internet first to see if they are still going. They weren't the first class types by any means especially Harley Mullions, I worked for one of his sons once with drastic results, knew 2 blokes with World Wide Shipping though and they seemed to be content with. Regards JWS

I will have a look and see if they are still operational, and if they are, try and contact them. Thank you again for all the information it really has been a great help.

Valerie x

[Dirk Lewer]

Two contacts for Hong Kong which may be able to give you some help.
Merchant Navy Officers Guild Hong Kong, tel(852)2545 8269
email mail@mnoghk.org.
The guild was formed in HK just after the war and is still going strong.
Most Officers and Engineers working for HK shipping companies would have been members.


The other contact is the Mariners Club operated by the Mission to Seaman, which has residential facilities.
I stayed there in 1968
Contact tel (852)2368 8261, email Stephen@themarinersclubhk.org. Stephen is the Anglican padre.
Hope this helps in your search.

[Valerie Moseley]

Two contacts for Hong Kong which may be able to give you some help.
Merchant Navy Officers Guild Hong Kong, tel(852)2545 8269
email mail@mnoghk.org.
The guild was formed in HK just after the war and is still going strong.
Most Officers and Engineers working for HK shipping companies would have been members.


The other contact is the Mariners Club operated by the Mission to Seaman, which has residential facilities.
I stayed there in 1968
Contact tel (852)2368 8261, email Stephen@themarinersclubhk.org. Stephen is the Anglican padre.
Hope this helps in your search.

Dirk, thank you so much I think you might have just hit the nail on the head !!

Just last night myself and my uncle's friend were trying to work out how Sandy (my uncle!) got from Hong Kong to London, now I would have been told in 1998, I think the then manager of the Seaman's Rest Mission told me their equivelant in Hong Kong had contacted them in regards to Sandy. However at that point I hadn't seen Sandy for 25 years, so I was a bit nervous to say the least !

I shall contact them immediately, and let you know how I get on !

Kindest regards,

Valerie x