Where ships go to die

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Originally Posted by gray_marian

#1, I find it obscene the conditions these men have to endure to earn a wage. Life is cheap right enough. I would have thought in this day and age technology could have been introduced in the dismantling of old ships? Or is it down to costs which no one wants be held accountable for?

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Marian, we have been down this road before and most of us will never agree of what is the right course as I presume you are talking about the shipbreakers in Pakistan and India. Having lived in Pakistan for for four years and visited the yards many times unless you have been there you do not realise what you will be taking away from thousands of people who work there. These places are townships with their own way of life, their own ambitions for themselves and families, ambitions and dreams that would never be realised if the yards were closed and they had to seek the mythical opportunities elsewhere. Some of the ambitions we would not understand, to be a better burner than their father, a better winch operator, a better crane driver, a better spares shop keeper, a lot seek their fortune outside the township, they succeed and then come back to the township to set up shop or set up schools, bring order by having local town councils within the ship breaking community township. What are you going to give them if you take all the ships away from them, or introduce technology that will take work away from them, where are the mythical alternatives of employment going to come from, unless you have been there and seen how the townships work in a cohesive manner, better than some so called advanced countries, (at least they are not killing each other because of some perceived slight as in Ukraine/Syria etc) Why is it that people think our Utopia is others Utopia, in reality it isn't, you would be removing them from their comfort zone, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Cost has nothing to do with it, it plays a 'part' it is not the sole reason, quiet townships and they are, are a Governments wished for agenda. There are schools in these townships and if you walk around at 0800 hours you will find numbers of kids in spotless white shirts and blouses with clean trousers and skirts skipping their way to school, their appearance puts our kids to shame, their thirst for knowledge puts our kids to shame, they get their degrees they go back, never forgetting their families and the efforts of their parents. You have to look at the picture as a whole. Yes of course there are accidents, there were in developed country ship breaking yards when we had them, visit Turkey another so called developed country and visit their ship breaking yards, you will find the same practices as Pakistan and India only the workers wear different clothes and safety procedures are non existent with welders and burners wearing flip flops while cutting and welding, hard hats are for keeping your lunch in, Idon't hear people saying 'Oh those poor Turks'

Gone on a bit haven't I, but first hand experience tends to make you do that.

All boils down to what has been said over and over again. Do not interfere with others way of life. Leave them to it. We all as persons and as people have different targets in life and a different life to live. We are not the conscience of the world. If we were we would not be manufacturing arms ad. lib. these countrys look at the west and see a different social and lifestyle some want to try. They should stay in their own domains and try and convert their own people if they are that keen. Not bring other economies down to their level which in the past we have all been at, at some time in History. Everyone in the west thinks we know it all, we dont, and should get on with our own lives and leave others to theirs. John S.

#11, 'Marian, we have been down this road before' With respect Ivan not with me you haven't. I won't quote all your valid points, I'm well aware
of the economic and social pecking order of third world countries. Have travelled also with my eyes wide open and of course realise if it wasn't this particular mode of work, it would then be some other equally revolting stinking job. Like you, I too have marvelled at the whiteness of the school shirt on the children and the squalor they are forced to live in. Still obscene though. Now wondering what was the object of the exercise of Neil's request to Doc to post the footage as Cappy stated job was done by our own country in harsher and unenlightened times it was pitiful then and still is now

Marian wasn't referring to you per-se, I was generalising, again with respect, travelling with eyes wide open is just a tad different from living amongst. I would think that a lot would welcome another stinking revolting job, if it were available. I think post #12 has covered the valid points. I have no wish to enter a discussion of the whys and werefores of perceived rights or wrongs of a particular situation, only giving my view from experience of living in the country of the subject raised.

---------- Post added at 11:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 AM ----------

A lot of us on here have done those stinking revolting jobs on board ship, cleaning out bilges, double bottoms, oil tanks, sludge tanks, sewage tanks in the normal course of our duties because at times it was necessary for the safe running of the ships. Covered in slime/sh*t/oil sludge etc crawling through Double bottoms with manholes only 15/18" in circumference every two feet apart in compartments were it was not even possible to kneel never mind stand up, every manouver carried out from a horizontal position with your face stuck in the sh*te. Sometimes in freezing temperatures and sometimes where the temp reached 140F all scores of feet from any fresh air or escape hatch, knowing that if another ship hit us whilst we were alongside or some silly barsteward closed the manhole cover whilst we were down there (it has happened) our number was up. So a lot of us speak from a position of strength, not all of us were picture postcard seamen walking around in spotless white jackets with silver salvers serving bloods, a lot went on in ships especially cargo ships that landlubbers with all due respect have no idea about what so ever. We may paint a picture of idyllic seas, unlimited sunshine, golden tanned skins, relaxing with a beer in some foreign clime, but those are the memories we wish to retain, reality was mostly different and at times very unpleasant and very dangerous.

#14, Again Ivan, Thank you for your 1st post, as to you second text, not for one moment am I admonishing or treating likely any position on board ship by you or any other member, but at least you had a choice and it was yours to make. Work life aside from the MN can be equally harsh and a real learning curve from my personal experience, my husband has always been self employed and that is not for the faint hearted either. That old adage, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, is very true. It makes you the person that you are today:)

There have and always will be masters and servants, kindness and cruelty. I understand fully the different points of view and whilst wishing for what will not be achieved I recognise that people can survive by necessity being the handmaiden of invention. We are lucky to be closer to the top of the pile, but a pile is wide at the bottom and narrows to the top and is becoming greater by the minute. Slogging for a living in Bangladesh is better than living and dying in a hell of fanaticism.

On a lighter note, Cappy:
The Fiji Times Saturday December 1st 1962 ran a little article as follows.
The 9000-ton Norwegian ship Ragna Ringdal, which is aground on a reef near Vatoa Island in the Lau Group is leaking in several places, in the hull, the Suva Harbour master (Captain E L James) told the Fiji Times yesterday.
He said that ships stern which appears to be in deep water than the bow is gradually sinking. Captain James was in radio communication with the Ragna Ringdal yesterday.
He said there was talk of the crew leaving the ship and going to Vatoa Island. It goes on to say how the crew were rescued and mentions that the Union Steamship vessel Tofua was on standby.

When the Ragna Ringdal ran aground near Votua with a full cargo of sawn timber the sea was covered. The vegetation bures on islands in the Lau group rapidly changed to (less attrative) wooden houses.
Richard

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Originally Posted by gray_marian

#14, . That old adage, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, is very true. It makes you the person that you are today:)

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If it doesn't kill you makes you stronger !! started my own company in 1986, first job in Rotterdam,(19th December) a chain broke whilst loading a grab, so I got hit by three and half tonnes of steel on its uncontrollable swing, got up and finished the job, didn't then know I had a crushed wrist, broken elbow, broken jaw. broken shoulder, broken teeth and some cuts and bruises, must have still been in shock, next job was 5th January 1987 again in Rotterdam, took 22 months in plaster to rebuild everything, but working for myself I still travelled the world doing my jobs, so I know all about working for yourself. As for having a choice, at sea that wasn't always the case, but that's all from me.

must try to keep out the road if you or brian are ever on the same scene together.......what did your insurer say to wiggle out the deal..its often the case regards cappy

---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:25 PM ----------

same off pitcairn richard when we lost some timber to days later it was gone....to build houses i guess or for keeping warm....mv cragmoor 1957

Head Office in Sydney had a bit of the cargo on reinsurance. I was happy reporting back with out my marine account getting even slightly damp.

Pitcairn was short of timber as it didn't replace itself quick enough when it was chopped down. That would have been very welcome. They used to sail and row great distances in their whale boats across to the other three islands in the group to fetch timber.

Richard

[QUOTE=cappy;168188]must try to keep out the road if you or brian are ever on the same scene together.......what did your insurer say to wiggle out the deal..its often the case regards cappy[COLOR="Silver"]

Took seven years to get any insurance payout Cappy, but then it was discounted because I worked whilst in plaster, now if I'd been a lazy slob and done nothing whilst in plaster I may have received three times as much.