Protocol for Engraving Medals

[Paul C Stevens]

There is no edge on the stars. He has the 1939 - 1945 Star, The Italy Star, the Atlantic Star with the France and Germany Clasp and the Arctic Star. The only one with an edge is the War Medal 1939 - 1945.

[Jim R Christie]

#1 Paul if its any consolation to you during the time of your fathers service , whether valid or not it was bandied around that the Radio Officer was the only valid officer on board the ship, the reason being he was usually the only one to be signed on as an officer. The master was master and the mates were mates and the engineers were engineers and evermore shall be so. Pride and time stand still for no man and today everyone likes to have the term officer attached to their title, your father was fully entitled to his service rank and signed on a British Merchant ship as such. I dont believe the RN took its radio officers from Marconi but then again I might be wrong but believe they trained their own . Ex naval personel will have better info. on this. Cheers JS

PS Do believe civilian radio officers took the Post Offices secrecy obligation to disclosure of private messages. Whereas Naval operators would more than likely come under the OSA. JS

The RN trained their own radio people, this coming under the Telegraphist branch ranging in rank from Boy Telegraphist to CPO Telegraphist.
MN R/O's could be bound under the OSA in peacetime dependent on the task at hand, during wartime nearly all communications would come under the OSA regardless.
When I did my GMDSS course I had to sign an undertaking "preserving the secrecy of correspondence" with reference to the 1949 Wireless Telegraphy Act.

If the fellow in question was in with the RN at some point then as a MN R/O he'd have been RNR not RNVR. It's entirely possible he was in a ship which was taken up for a specific purpose and the civilian crew retained and temporarily transferred to RNR for the duration and/or signed T124 articles (MN personnel under RN discipline etc).

[j.sabourn]

#10. This then leaves a blank of 4 years Paul . what licence was he using to sail as a R/O in 1940.? There are Radio Officers on the site and maybe they may know more about the licensing laws of that era. However I see your quandry here if your facts are correct . He may of been a member of the armed forces on special duties prior to getting his civilian Licence in 1944. Best of luck in your quest. As far as I am aware no one would be signed on as a 3rd. operator without a licence. Cheers JS

[Jim R Christie]

Ivan did you have a Merchant Navy Badge issued by the MOD with Veteran of HM Armed Forces stamped on ? This was also issued with a letter of Authenticity , nothing startling just who it was issued to. Could quite easily get lost. But plenty of room on back to print name and Dis. A. number. JS

Ditto the Australian Merchant Navy Service Crosses issued with certificates.
JS

John,
I ended up with both.
The MN one for voyages undertaken as part of a MOD operation(s), in my case prolonged periods in and around the Gulf.
I was also issued the standard badge for my time in RNR.
A keepsake I suppose to pass on with all my other stuff once I depart, however in comparison my Defence Discount Card is infinitely more purposeful!

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P.S. For those unaware all RN/RFA veterans plus those MN personnel who have been issued with a veterans badge can apply for a Defence Discount card which provides various deals and discounts on all manner of services, travel, insurance, shops etc both online and in person. An individual can apply for this card from the Defence Discount Service website and a list of the participating companies can be found there also.

[j.sabourn]

Jim ,Dont think it would apply in Australia ? JS

[Hugh]

The RNVR question is a difficult one. He always said he was RNVR and talked about being in the Wavy Navy but as you say it seems unlikely. Do you know how to go about checking?Could he have been on the reserve list but not called? His only previous military experience was in the Alleyns School OTC. Might that have any bearing? He was just leaving the school on the outbreak of the war.

Hi Paul, at that time there were basically two kinds of R.N.V.R. (note* different from R.N.R) - firstly, the large number of men who, having been accepted for the Royal Navy for the duration of hostilities, became temporary officers and served only until demobilised and secondly, the much smaller number of officers and men who joined the R.N.V.R. in years of peace and were called up at the outbreak of war. So, due to his age, that would rule out the latter. Still if he mentioned being in the R.N.V.R. I would certainly not dismiss it. May I ask what in the way of service records do you have for him, Discharge book, CRS 10, Seaman's Pouch? Where his medals issued via Cardiff?

#10. This then leaves a blank of 4 years Paul . what licence was he using to sail as a R/O in 1940.? There are Radio Officers on the site and maybe they may know more about the licensing laws of that era. However I see your quandry here if your facts are correct . He may of been a member of the armed forces on special duties prior to getting his civilian Licence in 1944. Best of luck in your quest. As far as I am aware no one would be signed on as a 3rd. operator without a licence. Cheers JS

Hi John,
A Special Certificate was was introduced early in the War. 2nd and 3rd ROs held only the Special and weren't allowed to sit for a 2nd Class certificate until they has put in 6 months service at sea. On obtaining a 2nd Class Certificate, a man could be promoted to 1st RO.

The RN trained their own radio people, this coming under the Telegraphist branch ranging in rank from Boy Telegraphist to CPO Telegraphist.

This is correct, I was one in the mid 70's, 80's, but they dropped the Telegraphist branch in favour of Communications branch.



Regards
Hugh

[Paul C Stevens]

Hi Paul, at that time there were basically two kinds of R.N.V.R. (note* different from R.N.R) - firstly, the large number of men who, having been accepted for the Royal Navy for the duration of hostilities, became temporary officers and served only until demobilised and secondly, the much smaller number of officers and men who joined the R.N.V.R. in years of peace and were called up at the outbreak of war. So, due to his age, that would rule out the latter. Still if he mentioned being in the R.N.V.R. I would certainly not dismiss it. May I ask what in the way of service records do you have for him, Discharge book, CRS 10, Seaman's Pouch? Where his medals issued via Cardiff?



Hi John,
A Special Certificate was was introduced early in the War. 2nd and 3rd ROs held only the Special and weren't allowed to sit for a 2nd Class certificate until they has put in 6 months service at sea. On obtaining a 2nd Class Certificate, a man could be promoted to 1st RO.



This is correct, I was one in the mid 70's, 80's, but they dropped the Telegraphist branch in favour of Communications branch.



Regards
Hugh

This could explain it the issue of his certificate coincided with his promotion to 1st Radio officer. I have his discharge book showing his nine voyages, his CRS 8 and his GPO second class certificate of proficiency. His Arctic Star was issued from Cardiff certainly. On checking i see the others which he applied for were also from Cardiff.
FWS-Merchant Navy Service-Record.jpgFWS-Cert-Discharge-Merchant-Navy.jpgFWS-Cert-of-Radio-Telegrapy-proficiency.jpg

[Paul C Stevens]

I see from a letter he wrote applying for his Soviet Commemorative medal issued by Mikhail Gorbachev in 1987, that his ship, the British Governor, was a Royal Fleet Auxiliary merchant tanker whose purpose was to be a "base oiler" for naval vessels in the Kola Inlet. Might this have a bearing on whether or not he was RNVR?

[Hugh]

I see from a letter he wrote applying for his Soviet Commemorative medal issued by Mikhail Gorbachev in 1987, that his ship, the British Governor, was a Royal Fleet Auxiliary merchant tanker whose purpose was to be a "base oiler" for naval vessels in the Kola Inlet. Might this have a bearing on whether or not he was RNVR?

No, not really, if anything some officers may have been R.N.R. and they may have signed T124 Agreements. R.N.V.R. on the other hand, those accepted for the Royal Navy for the duration of hostilities, became temporary officers and served only until demobilised. They served in RN ships/landing craft/MTB's/F.A.A. etc.

Nothing in his list of ships suggest R.N.V.R. He appears to have served the duration of the war as a MN radio officer. His medals were issued by the MN. He has a Seaman's Pouch held at TNA Kew in piece BT 372/354/150 and you obviously have his medal file which is held at TNA Kew in piece BT 395/1/92738

Regards
Hugh

[Paul C Stevens]

Thank you Hugh, you have been very helpful.