The usual Request for help

[PhilHarvey]

This has been a problem since I took up Genealogy about 15 years ago (which was down to the fact that my father asked me to see if I could obtain his Dad's war medals!!).

The story goes that my Paternal Grandfather was put on a training ship at the earliest opportunity, then (literally) the next day, his parents emigrated to South Africa. He then went on to serve in WW2 on a number of ships on the North Atlantic Convoys.

Unfortunately, he never spoke of his past, as many of his era didn't/don't. I have no idea which ship he served for his training, having been born in Colchester and later living in Southampton.

He was born in 1913, and would guess he boarded when he was 14 (the earliest age I understand). I have a copy of his discharge book, but has no mention of training ships and the earliest of his ships being in 1929.

He died in 1984, long before I was interested to find this kind of information out. His parents are a little bit of a mystery, as only his mother is named on the Birth Certificate and being born after 1911, difficult to find on the Census. A father is named on the marriage certificate, but feel this may be a ficticious name.

Basically, I'm trying to find a couple of facts about him...
His Training ship, and
His Parents (I would hope they would be named on some documentation somewhere handing responsibility over to the Merchant Navy)

I appreciate this is quite a considerable amount of information, but it has been a family mystery for years now.

Any help would (obviously) be gratefully received.

Regards,
Phil.

[Ray Buck]

Phil
As you haven’t given your Grandfathers name, I’m guessing that he was Lionel C Harvey born June Quarter 1913 registered in Colchester in volume 4a page 1629
Was his DisA No R62900 Dob 26th April 1913 if so his Medal entitlement could be http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/d...&resultcount=1

As you are in possession of his DisA book then the first ship listed official Crew agreement should, should have his previous ship entered so you should be able to backtrack


Ray

[PhilHarvey]

Thank you for your reply.

This is indeed my grandfather.

We have his medals. This is not the issue.

My problem is trying to trace his family (I am aware of his mother - Edith Mary Harvey). I would have assumed that there would be a document somewhere which shows the names of parents on entering the MN.

Also, his training ship is not listed in his discharge book. His first ship was SS Kintyre in 1929, but nothing listed prior to this.

I am relying a little on family hear-say, but apparently he told his children that he was put on a training ship. I would like to trace this ship. Being born in Colchester, this could have been in London. However, at some point (I do not know when) he moved to Southampton, and therefore enlisted on a ship there. With this said, his first ship (see above) sailed from Liverpool on his first voyage, so that could have also been a contender.

It's all very messy and have spent countless hours/days/months/years trying to unravel this!

Thank you!

[Ray Buck]

The official No for the “SS Kintyre” built 1907 is 123323 (original name appears to be “Den of Ruthven” when built) The crew agreement and ships log for the year 1929 appears to be in the MUN Canada http://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewc...cial_No=123323

http://www.mun.ca/mha/about/orderagreements.php

“I would have assumed that there would be a document somewhere which shows the names of parents on entering the MN.”

there may not be anything specific usually the next of kin would be included on the crew agreement as well as the previous ship (if there was one) he may have been at a Naval school ( I seem to remember there was one in Suffolk around the Woodbridge area) or been Cadet / Apprentice to a company on shore before joining a “Ship”, if he was indentured then he would be listed in the “Register of Apprentice Indentures” on micro film in the TNA Kew
Ray

[Ivan Cloherty]

there may not be anything specific usually the next of kin would be included on the crew agreement as well as the previous ship (if there was one) he may have been at a Naval school ( I seem to remember there was one in Suffolk around the Woodbridge area) or been Cadet / Apprentice to a company on shore before joining a “Ship”, if he was indentured then he would be listed in the “Register of Apprentice Indentures” on micro film in the TNA Kew
Ray[/QUOTE]

Hi Phil

The above is good advice

Apprentices's ships were not entered into their discharge books, cadets ships were as cadets were not indentured. Nor were ships listed on the indentures but your service was given in a side letter from the company to whom you were indentured. Neither my father or myself had our ships listed on our indentures, my fathers in the 1920's and my own in the 1950's. Always thought they should have been. If he had been indentured prior to going to sea then it is most likely that he would have been an engineer as deck apprentices were not indentured prior to going to sea.

Not much help I know, just thinking aloud

Rgds

Ivan

[robpage]

There are a few Edith Mary Harvey's born around the turn of the century if she was born in march 1889 in Lexden she could be twinned with Lilly born on the same date , In September of the same year there is another born in Rochford and one in Southend , and in 1893 another in West Ham , so with three starts it makes the rest harder to follow , do you have any clues as to the birth date ?

[PhilHarvey]

Thanks both.

Unfortunately he wasn'y an Engineer. He started on the Kintyre as a Galley Boy, then promoted(?) to Deck Boy on his next ship.

I'm unfamiliar with the term 'indentured', but reading between the lines, I think he may have been a cadet and therefore his 'Ship' not noted in the dischaarge book.

If there were a 'Crew List' for these 'Ships' I may be able to track him down, but as far as I can tell, they don't exist.

It appears as if this will continue to be a mystery!!

Regards,
Phil.

[Ray Buck]

Phil
you say “if there were Crew list ships I may be able to track him down, But as far as I can tell, they don’t exist”
Have you actually tried to obtain them ? have the other ships Official Nos or name of the vessels
As I have pointed out in post #4 the crew Agreement for the “Kintyre“ should be in the MUN Canada which you should be able to purchase via the links given
Ray

[Doc Vernon]

Dont know if this will help at all!
Cheers

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/c...rchterm=123323

As mentioned by Ray there is Crew List for that Ship of that Year!

Official_No: 123323


1909: E2

1910: E2

1911: E2

1912: E2

1913: E2

1914: E2

1916: E2

1917: E1

1919: E1

1920: E2

1921: E2

1922: E2

1923: E2

1924: E2

1926: E1

1927: E2

1929: E1



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Search results for Crew Agreements in British Institutions

We are not aware of any other crew agreements held at U.K. county record offices for Official
Number 123323.


For information on ordering any of the crew agreements listed above, please visit the
Ordering Crew Agreements page.

E1

Official Log Present


Title: Agreement and Account of Crew (Foreign-Going Ship).
Description: Contained information on the particulars of engagement and discharge for one voyage.

From

http://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewc...cial_No=123323

Contact Tanya McDonald at the Crew List Section!

http://www.mun.ca/mha/about/orderagreements.php

mha@mun.ca

[PhilHarvey]

I think we are talking different purposes here.

The Kintyre was his first 'proper' ship. I am aware of crew lists held by the MUN. I have copies of these for other ships he served on.

The 'Ships' I refer to are the training ships. As I do not know which training ship he was on (as mentioned in my original post), I am unable to obtain a crew list. Also, do crew lists actually exist for training ships?