SS Duke of York, Captain Rowland Vincent Adams

[j.sabourn]

#19 Marian most people put a lot of value on medals proof of that is the price of various in second hand shops. Myself I would put a bit more value on the warrant which accompanys such which is on parchment and enscribed in ink in the old fashioned handwriting and bears the signature and date of the Ruling Monarch , medals can always be replaced , Monarchs words and signatures can’t. For the medal to be authentic it must have the warrant as proof, just the same as a British seaman must have a British Dis. A discharge book as proof of Identity. Even the MN badge sent to me from the MOD with the words Veteran of HM Armed Forces had a bit of paperwork to prove it was genuine. Keep up the good work a lot of explorers into family history owe you a lot. Cheers JS

[Marian Gray]

John, #21, Thank you for the kind words

#19 was Richard's post.


#19, Richard, Still no obit as yet, 7 newspaper reports though on the SS Duke of York Inquest, all from Jan 1954 from the following:

The Coventry Evening Telegraph

The Scotsman

Aberdeen Evening Express

Bradford Observer

Dublin Evening Mail

Belfast News-letter

Huddersfield Daily Examiner

If needed will FWD whichever are required.

[j.sabourn]

As regards Hugh’s statement that doesn’t know why he received the MBE. I think most people are in the same dilemma as no reason is given on the warrant . At investitures you see the various people being knighted and the announcement before going in front of the Monarch the likes of “ For services to the food industry “ or the “ whatever Industry”. The same as whatever grade of Order one is getting , in my case was just “ Master of the Silver Pit “.
The Order of the British Empire will be the same I would imagine as I copy out you will have to imagine the paper and fancy writing in black ink.

Elizabeth R

Elizabeth the Second , by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen Head of the Commonwealth Defender of the Faith and Sovereign of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire to our trusty and well beloved JWS esquire.
Greeting
Whereas We have thought fit to nominate and appoint you to be an Ordinary Member of the Civil Division of Our Most Excellent Order of the British Empire.
We do .. by these presents grant unto you the Dignity of an Ordinary Member of our said Order and hereby authorise you to have hold and enjoy the said Dignity and Rank of an Ordinary Member of our aforesaid Order together with all and singular the privileges thereunto belonging or appertaining.
Given at the Court of Saint James under Our Sign Manual and the Seal of Our Order this Thirty first day of December 1990 in the Thirty Ninth year of Our Reign .
By the Sovereigns Command
Signed Philip
Grand Master

Grant of the Dignity of an Ordinary Member
Of the Civil Division of the Order of the British Empire
To JWS Esquire .
Everyone holding this order will be the same wording or very similar apart from names etc.
Cheers JS

[Richard Pugh]

Message for Hugh,
Hugh I have two separate responses to your previous posts.

1. Ref Post #7, 24th Sept. 2023.

With regards to the award of the MBE. Can you tell me how you know he was serving on the Sheringham at the time of the award. I am struggling to find any references to his ships served on after those you posted on #7. Have I missed a source of reference. I have visited TNA on several occasions and get as far as finding the Service Records for Adams, but when I Filter in his details the records drop off.?
i know that he was serving on the Duke of York in 1953, reference the Haiti Victory incident.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.

2. Post #3, dated 23 Sept, 2023.

Just to say you showed a Thumbnail of Capt. Adams's Masters Cert, which I have accessed a copy on line, this gives the impression of a card of approx. 4 inches by 5 inches. I have just viewed his original certificate. I was amazed, it is folded multi times to achieve that size as above.
Question. Is the certificate written on OILCLOTH? if not do you know what? Can it be written on continually? If so how is the writing protected against water damage? I am assuming that all the preceding Certificates follow the same format in size?

Regards

Richard

[Richard Pugh]

Message for J Sabourn.

Hi,

I would like to comment on your two Posts, #21, 30th Sept. 2023, and #23, 1st Oct. 2023.

I agree entirely with your comments, I like to see the award Documentation that gives authenticity to the actual medals.
(A recent newspaper story regarding wearing of un-entitled medals sort of backs this up).
It was this need to see proof that drove me to research the records which said Capt. Adams received the OBE. The more I dug, the more I became convinced that the OBE never happened. I have now collected enough information, evidence, and lack of evidence to say with certainty that Capt Adams received the MBE., only. This prevented me from making the same mistake as several others who have reported him as the holder of the OBE. on various Records and Web Sites.

I should add that I have now seem the original Documentation which was presented along with the MBE.

Also that the MBE Medal would have been requested to be returned in the event that the holder was awarded an upgraded award in that same category.

Regards Richard

[Richard Pugh]

Message for Marian Gray.

Hi Marian

Ref. Post #18, 25th Sept. 2023.

Ref. my search for the OBIT for Capt. Adams. Whilst this document may prove to be an interesting document to read, my original reason for searching for it has since been overtaken by events.
Ref. my recent Post #25, 8th Oct 2023.
I have proven that Capt. Adams did only receive the MBE, not and OBE.
However if I get the chance to view an Obit, should one exist, I will swiftly take that opportunity.

Thanks for your help.

Regards
Richard

[j.sabourn]

#24 Until Hugh gets back to you…my last certificate was issued in February 1964 and followed on from the previous two as the same size , black 4.5 x 6.5 inches with gold lettering consisting of two pages of hard cardboard and incapable of being folded ,inside was white with the same wording as you already have , and signed by the Register General and a Deputy Secretary of the Ministry of Transport. There was only two fixed parts to and impossible to fold further contained between back and front was the actual authorisation . JS

Further to MBES and OBEs you will find that MBEs were usually awarded to seafarers and Special Constabularies and OBEs to Athletes and Actors . However all depends on what’s available as each rank has only a stipulated number of holder who are still living. JS

[Richard Pugh]

John, #21, Thank you for the kind words

#19 was Richard's post.


#19, Richard, Still no obit as yet, 7 newspaper reports though on the SS Duke of York Inquest, all from Jan 1954 from the following:

The Coventry Evening Telegraph

The Scotsman

Aberdeen Evening Express

Bradford Observer

Dublin Evening Mail

Belfast News-letter

Huddersfield Daily Examiner

If needed will FWD whichever are required.

Hi Marian,

I have NOT seen any newspaper reports on the Incident Inquest, but would love to read anything available.

I will leave you to decide which would be more interesting, or informative.

Would my email address be of use?

Many thanks

Regards, Richard

[j.sabourn]

#27 All medals in the MBE/OBE area are not returnable , the owners of such are the next of kin and can be worn on the right breast . Their death should however be reported to where the records are kept the same as the whereabouts of the holder of such resides throughout his life span . The only way they would be returned would be my mutual agreement , believe the Beatles did this, or they are wiped clean of the recordings due to bad behaviour the same as any of the Orders. Cheers JS
For Example , believe it was Lester Piggot who lost his OBE through false income tax claims . JS

[j.sabourn]

There is no excuse for the Beatles returning their MBEs as would have been asked if they wanted or not. The following is a letter they would have received …
InConfidence .

Sir the Prime Minister has asked me to inform you , in strict confidence , that she has it in mind on the occasion of the forthcoming New Years Honours , to submit your name to the Queen with a recommendation that Her Majesty may be graciously pleased to approve that you be appointed a Member of the British Empire .
Before doing so , the Prime Minister would be glad to be assured that this would be agreeable to you. I would be grateful if you would let me know by completing the enclosed form and sending it to me by return post .
If you agree that your name should go go forward and the Queen accepts the Prime Ministers recommendation , the announcement will be made in the New Years Honours List .
You will receive no further communication before the list is published

I am Sir your obedient servant .
Signed by Private Secretary
I needless to say was at sea and the letter lay on the rig for 10 days due to bad weather where the wife had forwarded it on to . It was almost due for expiry so had no way to send forms back and had to either accept or refuse by telephone through Landsend Radio , if I had said no I would have gone home to a frosty welcome as spoiling an excellent day out as the wife had read the letter.So I phoned 10 Downing Street direct . Accepting the gift, I like to think it was the last thing Maggie Thatcher did in office , as she a couple of days later packed up her chattels and left . Cheers JS