Discharge A number from the Great War ?

[Andre Chissel]

Hello everyone,

i have a discharge A number of 247057 (from the medal rolls) for a Peter Kristian Amundsen RS2 number 390934. He went from being a Second Officer on a Collier in 1916 to an Able Seaman when he filled in his seaman record register.

I have several questions:

a) Is it called the 1913 to 1940 Fourth Register of Merchant Seaman's Service, or the UK Merchant Navy Seamen 1918-1941 records ?;
b) can we date his approximate date of discharge from the Discharge A number ?
c) What does 'A" stand for in Discharge A number ?
d) what could have caused his demotion if that was what occurred ?
e) What does 'RS' in RS2 number stand for please ?

Thanks

Andre

[Hugh]

Hello Andre,

1. The Central Indexed Register, 1913-1941 – sometimes referred to as the Fourth Register of Seamen.

2. Can we date his approximate date of discharge from his Discharge A number – No you can’t.

3. What does ‘A’ stand for in Discharge A number? It is just a name given, perhaps without a meaning or that meaning is long lost. – Nowhere will you find evidence of any meaning. The Dis. A number was a number given to seamen when issued with a Discharge Book or known more formally as a Continuous Certificate of Discharge.

4. What could have caused his demotion if that was what happened?
What proof do you have that he was a second mate in 1916? I can see him on the collier WANDLE for three voyages but the crew list is only transcribed and his age is noted as 37, 27 and 17. One recorded as AB and the other two as 2nd Mate. I would want to see the actual crew agreement and indeed the official logbook rather than a transcribed entry which are sometimes incorrect. He is noted on his CR 10 Card with photo showing him as an AB. I do not see any 2nd Mates Certificate of Competency for Peter K. Amundsen.

5. RS2 number is the number of his RS2 Identity and Service Certificate – which was issued between the years 1918 and 1921 – again, it is just a name given, perhaps without a meaning or that meaning is long lost.

Regards
Hugh

[Andre Chissel]

Wow ! Thank you Hugh ! By way of background, I won at auction his tribute medal for his part in seeing off an attack by the UB-27 on 29 April 1916 whilst on board the collier Wandle. Hence my interest in researching him and the attack. Accordingly, I have accessed a wealth of newspapers and one of them lists the crew and he is listed as Second Officer (which could of course be wrong - so evidence, not proof !). For interest, the crew at the time of the attack is listed here:

George Robert Avis Mastin Master/Captain (of the Wandle for over seven years)

A.V. Lundin First Officer
Peter Kristian Amundsen Second Officer
R.J. Butchart Chief Engineer
John Walton Second Engineer
George Law Steward
E.J. Gustavson
Henry Jackson
George Neale
L.J. Georgeson
Thomas Emerson
G. Mason
Selby Robson Fireman (wounded)
John R. Johnston
Christopher Porteous
Johnathan Wills
John Robson (Selby Robson’s son)
E. Norton RNR 1st Gunner
C.B. Lane RNR 2nd Gunner

I would welcome your suggestion as to what rank I give him - you have found supporting evidence for the rank of second mate, but that doesn't address the rank of AB on the records - why would he be given a Second Mate rank in some of the records if he had no second mate cert ? Did he lie ? (he lied about his age to get adult pay rates - says he was born in 1878 when he was born in 1880) is that possible ? - He was also Norwegian.

Oh and the submarine was not sunk, it continued on a very successful sinking spree and this was its first War Patrol.

Andre

[Hugh]

Hi Andre,

By an order of 1845 the Board of Trade authorised a system of voluntary examinations of competency for men intending to become masters or mates of foreign-going British merchant ships.
The system was made compulsory by the Mercantile Marine Act of 1850 and extended to masters and mates of home trade vessels by the Merchant Shipping Act of 1854. A master's or mate's certificate of competency was issued to each man who passed the examination. Men who were considered by the examiners to have sufficient experience as a master or mate were eligible, without formal examination, for certificates of service.

There are some other reasons why men did not need a BoT certificate due to previous service but to progress in rank they would have to take the ticket.

He was Norwegian so I am not sure of his previous if any service in Norway. I have no reason to suggest he did not serve in the capacity shown i.e., AB, Bosun and 2nd Mate. If he was signed on the articles of agreement for WANDLE as 2nd Mate, then that’s what he was for the duration of the voyage. I have attached his CR 10 for you in case you do not have it but unfortunately he has no more surviving cards in the Fourth Register of Seamen.
He was serving as a seaman (merchant service) according to the 1911 Census and also the 1939 Register confirms that he was a ships bosun in that year.

AMUNDSEN.jpg

It was not unknown in earlier times for an officer to sail as an AB if there were no berths available for his position.

He died of a knife wound in South Shields on 9 November 1939. He was described as a ship’s bosun.

If we knew the name of the ship, he was serving aboard in 1939 then it would be possible to obtain the crew agreement and check his previous ship and also back track his service and see what rank or rating he generally signed on as.

Regards
Hugh

[Andre Chissel]

Many thanks Hugh.

I understand that Southampton may have his original CR10 (so I might be able to get a better photograph of him) and the German Uboat Museum has the War Diaries for the UB-27 and they will soon be on the way.

Interestingly, the newspapers all talk about the Captain receiving a medal from the borough of Wandsworth but there is no mention of the crew receiving one and the wording on the Captain's medal is different to that of the one I have. That said, the medal I have is manufactured by a well-known tribute medal manufacturer of the time, so I think that the entire crew probably received one.

I have the information from the 1911 and 1939 census and have asked a researcher for the 1921 and 1931 census as well as the CR10s for the rest of the crew so I can get their full names and ranks/ratings.

I had no idea he died from a knife wound - I will check the papers for that - thank you.

The number 118649 relates to the collier Longhirst (originally owned J. Fenwick & Son of Newcastle which had been seized by Germany when it was in Hamburg at the start of the Great War where it was used by the Imperial German Navy, but by 1919 she was back in the UK owned by Lambton & Hetton Collieries Ltd of Newcastle) which was when Peter signed on 1 July 1919 until 29 April 1920.

All the best and really appreciate the help on this.

Andre

[Des Taff Jenkins]

Hi Hugh.
I was a little puzzled by that discharge having an A, but on looking at my Dads discharge book I noticed for the first time a Dis. A inside the front cover and below it the badge of the Board of Trade, there is no A in front of the number it self.
Cheers des

[j.sabourn]

The only BOT certificates I was aware of in the first twenty odd years I was at sea were master f.g. ,mate f.g., and second mate f.g... master H.T. and mate H.T., F.g tug master , Skipper ( full) fishing. Today there is a menagerie of certificates the last time I looked . As regards master there is 1 2 3 4 and 5 all with different limitations. Believe the tugmasters and fishing ( full ) are still there though . In my time in the North Sea the number of foreign going certificates were only just starting to increase as work deep sea was rapidly disappearing .
even then one could sail as master on a 2 mates certificate with a command endorsement . Don’t ask me the certificate structure today as not all that interested, I strongly suspect all these changes came about to suit the E.U. JS....

[Doc Vernon]

Hi Hugh.
I was a little puzzled by that discharge having an A, but on looking at my Dads discharge book I noticed for the first time a Dis. A inside the front cover and below it the badge of the Board of Trade, there is no A in front of the number it self.
Cheers des

Hi Des
I had posted this before but to clear you up on the A Prefix here is the explanation
Cheers

Its just an indication of a letter that has the actual meaning of "Merchant Navy Discharge A. book numbers or more formally the ‘Continuous Certificate of Discharge’"

Asst Stwd, Frank Heller b. 1894, London.
Frank was the first Dis.A ‘R’ number (R1). He joined the Merchant Navy in 1925

[Hugh]

Hi Hugh.
I was a little puzzled by that discharge having an A, but on looking at my Dads discharge book I noticed for the first time a Dis. A inside the front cover and below it the badge of the Board of Trade, there is no A in front of the number it self.
Cheers des

Yes, Des, your discharge book number is sometimes referred to as your Dis. A number because it was issued with your personal Dis. A book. Discharge books first came into being in the year 1900 for foreign going voyages only to replace the paper discharges which were easily lost. Paper discharges continued for HT vessels but eventually all voyages ended up in the DB.

Doc wrote
I had posted this before but to clear you up on the A Prefix here is the explanation

Vernon, that information you posted was researched directly by me and posted on two other well known shipping sites - not wishing to annoy you but it would be nice if you credited where you found it. After all it took me some time to do it - Thanks.

The Book as already stated was a Dis. A Book but don't get confused with the prefixes. The first Dis. A Books all had numerals only then in 1925 it moved for British seamen to the prefix 'R' but there were other prefixes including the letter 'A' which were for Indian and Pakistani seamen although personally I have not seen many or in fact any in the records. There were other prefixes too such as 'C' or 'CAN' for Canadians. The prefix 'S' was also given to some seamen.

Regards
Hugh

[cappy]

Hi andre just as a matter of interest i have before me a paper copy discharge for my grandfathers brother john cram ....for ss wandle on 125754 reg in london 463 ton
john cram....ab year of birth 1871 shetland signed on 16 11 16 south shields discharge 20 2 17 south shields......master g .mastin witness a v lundin....first mate.....address 9 beufort terrace south shields.......regards cappy r683532