Interesting for the navigators

[happy daze john in oz]

John, thanks for that.

Couple of years ago we were invited to go for a bridge tour, very interesting.

The bridge looked nothing like the ones I recall during my time at sea.
No wheel just a very small joy stick and the helmsman staring into a small screen.

A number of dials and other screens but no sign of a compass, sextant or any other similar equipment, no visible sign of radio or contact with engine room.
Only two on the bridge at any time we were told, but must say it was very clean and tidy.

I am sure there is some form of back up which is not visible but there for those who know how to use it.

[j.sabourn]

Maybe two survival suits under the chart room settee ? JS

[John Arton]

Thanks K.T...,not, for starting this thread, I now lie awake at night churning over in my head the formula and principles of celestial navigation and are awakening at 05:00 daily getting ready to take morning star sights, counting down in my head, 1000,2000,3000 etc. As I scuttle from bridge wing to chart table and chronometer to get the hours, minutes and seconds of my star/planet elevation. Always used Marc Saint Hilaire for working out my position lines.
Then just as I'm about to plot them the wife digs me in the side and tells me to stop muttering in my sleep, so I never do get to find which ocean my dreams have taken me too......Damm,
Rgds
J.A.

[Tony Taylor]

Thanks John, all sounds very plausible. I have seen the same method of teaching supplied to naval officers . One ex Dartmouth cadet asked me crossing the Bay of Biscay and out of the Decca navigator system if he could come on bridge in the morning and take star sights with me I said of course you can . He was on the bridge at 0500 and wanted his printed sheets which told him what to do move by move , I said we don’t use them we just use the Haversine formula which he could not remember , this man actually taught navigation at Dartmouth . I can still recite that formula today off the top of my head Hav ZX = Hav LHA cos. Lat. cos Dec + hav ( L diff D) he went off the bridge and couldn’t do without the paperwork to tell him what to do.To me that is not a navigator. If you cant retain important facts in your memory you are no navigator. Navigation is not a Do it yourself job, just follow the written instructions , it’s an art you can do in the dark by flashlight if necessary and no written instructions. Cheers JS.

Reminds me of that movie Those Magnificent Men in Their Flying machines, Gert Frobe trying to fly a plane while reading from the instruction handbook.

[j.sabourn]

The sight reduction tables which I first saw about 1960 and which were brought out by the Americans during the war for their fly boys ,were the biggest thing since sliced bread. Don’t know about other company’s but the one I was with would never supply and if wanted had to hunt around and buy oneself. They cut down the working of 5 stars from over an hour to half the time. The shipowner or those who represented him ashore were always laid back when it came down to easing the burden of those afloat , and yet they were quick to prompt the new science of Time and Motion. Was all relative I suppose the way they looked at it. JS

[happy daze john in oz]

Celestial navigation.
Such a wonderful term, looking up at the stars to guide you.

Something I have done, and no doubt some of you.

Had a skin full and not sure of the way home, so lie on the sidewalk and look at the stars, worked for me.
Only problem, often woke up very cold and with a stiff neck.

[j.sabourn]

Probably saw them again John getting home when the wife hit you with the frying pan ? JS

[Keith Tindell]

i am right in the middle of reading, Fiddlers green, the great squandering, and the trauma that these seaman endured. One amusing story i have just read, where our coastal trade was being really hammered, in particular the channel coast, where seaman refused to sail in some ship, the reason given was that the cargo of coal was to a coal merchant for profit, but they would sail if it was to a power station. the anecdote quoted was a foreign going ships master, asked a coasting master *what would you do if you lost sight of land ?*, his home trade colleague answered *the same as you when you sight it, **** myself* made me smile, kt

[j.sabourn]

#1. Keith good on you getting the YM certificate . If you had started with the basics for navigation at your time and era you would have been taught the following at 15 years of age , something which sticks at that early age.
1. The earth is an elliptical shape ( not round ) with its polar diameter approx. 27 nautical miles less than its equatorial diameter.
2. Although the earth moves round the sun , it would appear that the sun moves rounds the earth and this apparent motion extended to the celestial sphere is called the ecliptic.
3. The earth moving round the sun in its elliptical orbit when furthest from the sun is said to be in aphelion and when closest to the sun in perihelion. So in one post which have lost , where J. In Oz says the sun may be getting closer to the earth causing the earth to heat up, could in theory be closer to the truth than he realises.
4 . The earth is inclined 23.5 degrees from the perpendicular to the plane of its orbit , thus giving us the seasons of the year. This is the basics for all navigation , and would assume your navigation for Y.M. Starts at this level. .??
For anyone wanting to learn navigation is very basic if one starts at the beginning .But one has to. Put the time in to do it. Today your GPS puts all this pressure off people to inquire about how our forefathers managed. All I can say is they worked at it and they certainly didnt lack IQ. Cheers JS

[Keith Tindell]

Thanks for that John, yes, did cover a lot of what you say, and it really was an enjoyable course, theory being taken on evening classes over the winter, and the practical was all day out in the Solent, with a crew onboard a yacht, obviously only dipping in to the subject. I enjoyed the coastal navigation part as well, tidal heights, lights etc. Unfortunately now i would not be much use on a small boat, not agile enough, as i found out yesterday, when i had to clamber up in the loft !! kt