EU Shipping

[thomas michael]

* 44 So are you now saying that when you posted the story about the bribery it was a lie ?
The post can be found.

hi louis
i do not retract one word of what i have said.
tom

[cappy]

time to put this one to bed i guess .....cappy

[j.sabourn]

#40... Greek Shipping.. Think have said before .. Think it was about 1975 but could not swear to it. Was working for Whitco Marine. They asked me to attend a Seminar in London. It was 3 days in a London Hotel with wife. In attendance were various company reps. members of the DTI (government) and various odds and sods. One of the subjects in fact believe it was the main one, was the way shipping was going , as most realized by then it was going to Hell in a hand basket. Costing of various maritime flags was done by independent accountants , and distributed to those present. The cheapest flag was Greek, followed extremely closely by the British only pennies a day in it. Other flags which most consider cheapskates were well above British on expenditure. On the surmises of that meeting Costing was not the downfall of the British Merchant Navy , as far as I am concerned one will have to look for another excuse. As regards the Greek flag also I have been on two ships handed over to Greek owners and was offered jobs with them which were as good and in some cases better than the British flag. The Greeks like others get very unfair critisism at times. Nearly all the mickey mouse flags I have sailed under all were better paid than the British, that is proof enough for me. JS

[happy daze john in oz]

In any democracy the winner should be the one in the majority.
But sadly now there is often the case where some in the minority make so much noise they are listened to and at times get their own way.

If the media had to be voted for then the only ones still going would be the left wing ones, voted in by the loonies from the left and their mates the Greens.

[Louis the fly]

#53 JS you had the guts to do something I wouldn't by joining the standby industry. When I was with Offshore Marine the rig asked us to take food supplies to their standby boat because they were nearly out. The crane driver lowered the stores in the personal basket. When we came alongside the standby boat the crew looked like they had been sleeping rough in a shop doorway for a couple of weeks. Although it could be dangerous work on supply ships compared to them we had a life of luxury. The carefree shipping world we once had was long gone.

[j.sabourn]

Louis I wasnt there by choice but by necessity. I had been in Seaforth Maritime on their Supply and Anchor Handlers previously but they went to the wall , but had been a very progressive company and reasonably well paid. I shot off when I found a job. I turned down the first job available due to the extreme low pay and would not have barely paid my mortgage. It was on a Fish Oil tanker running from Iceland to Liverpool , registered in Gibralter . The master who I would have taken over from was an old retired mariner. The ship with all hands was lost on Xmas day in broad daylight by being in collission with an obvious landmark. She was lost with all hands. Think it would have been Xmas day 1986 or 7 . you may have heard of it. Another near miss you might say. I chose to go as mate on 2 yugoslav owned ships for the next year , one a Meddy Trader and one to the Americas. I cant even remember their names , the ships yes , names no. I got that job by accosting someone in the pub. Coming back to UK i received a phone call offering me a job on a converted whale catcher as a stand by safety vessel , lousy pay and conditions but was a door back into the offshore world. And closer to family. I have every regard for the crews of these vessels , to most of them ex fishermen , the sea has been their only livlihood , and they are good seamen . The conditions they worked under I had to join them , but if you dont work you dont eat. I made a vow to myself that I intended staying at sea until 65 and it was hard going believe me. There is no sitting back on your laurels going to sea today or at any other time. Cheers JS

[j.sabourn]

Louis the unkempt appearance of the crew you describe just about covers the whole of that side of the Industry. All showers ceased when the Fresh Water hose was sent ashore on sailing. We knew water rationing deep sea years before evaporators and distillers, In the 1980s it was alive and well , and there was no ruling authority like the B.O.T. You were extremely lucky to have enough water on the ship to see you back into port, and was usual to beg off the Installation just for personal consumption. What price safety when a ship is certified to carry 250 survivors , with one toilet and no fresh water showers for those covered in oil, no gas alarms, nothing zilch , what would you do.? Questions that should have been asked and answers recorded at the enquiry. However never mind we have dispensible seamen who will find a way round that. If the Piper Alpha had never happened , there would be no stand by boats out there now. Out of all the ships out there all the life saving was done by 16 men the 9 off the Silver Pit, the 3 off the Sandhaven of whom 2 were killed along with their 6 survivors , and the 4 off the Lowland Cavalier in a totally unsuitable boat and had to withdraw earlier or suffer the consequences. The oil companys were trying to do away with such. So those working today in that part of the Industry owe their jobs to those 16 men , scruffy or not. A few of them have since passed away earlier than they should have, but they were seamen through and through. Cheers JS

[thomas michael]

Louis the unkempt appearance of the crew you describe just about covers the whole of that side of the Industry. All showers ceased when the Fresh Water hose was sent ashore on sailing. We knew water rationing deep sea years before evaporators and distillers, In the 1980s it was alive and well , and there was no ruling authority like the B.O.T. You were extremely lucky to have enough water on the ship to see you back into port, and was usual to beg off the Installation just for personal consumption. What price safety when a ship is certified to carry 250 survivors , with one toilet and no fresh water showers for those covered in oil, no gas alarms, nothing zilch , what would you do.? Questions that should have been asked and answers recorded at the enquiry. However never mind we have dispensible seamen who will find a way round that. If the Piper Alpha had never happened , there would be no stand by boats out there now. Out of all the ships out there all the life saving was done by 16 men the 9 off the Silver Pit, the 3 off the Sandhaven of whom 2 were killed along with their 6 survivors , and the 4 off the Lowland Cavalier in a totally unsuuitable boat and had to withdraw earlier or suffer the consequences. The oil companys were trying to do away with such. So those working today in that part of the Industry owe their jobs to those 16 men , scruffy or not. A few of them have since passed away earlier than they should have, but they were seamen through and through. Cheers JS

hi j sabourn
may i humbly submit, that without yourself and the crew of the silver pit together with the sandhaven and crew and also the lowland cavalier, whom put ex fishing trawlers or sidewinders as they are known into the hells fire of the piper alpha, which after the dreadful and ghastly explosion it forced the whole industry into some action, and as you point out the total lack of equipment and safety aspects, But all of the improvements to the offshore safety boats, ie standby or indeed other vessels working in the industry, have been brought about by the new technology that has been seen upto now capable to do the job they are meant to do.Because the companies where forced to do so, by yours and the other men with the wrong tools to do such a job, and in many ways to succeed under all the odds against you
i speak as being firstly working out of lowestoft when the first ever offshore drilling started, with the ubiquitous sidewinders being used, then the americans where in charge i believe theriot and brown was the employer it was good money then, but the safety was the same as you pointed out,and had never changed until the very disaster that became the piper alpha.
i speak with some professional knowledge, i also know personally about all i have quoted because both my sons where employed on the very same boats, also three of my brothers,
it was a terrible time for all on that occasion , brought home to me of the personal photographs produced by one of my brothers of the explosions and flames whilst at the scene,
later more poignant, after the events was seeing the remnants of piper alpha coming into the seaforth docks in liverpool.
a terrible terrible event, for you your crew and the other boats.
humbly
tom

[cappy]

and after reading that js and tom......i believe i have more right than ever to ask if any or all of the seamen concerned were still paying union dues ....if they were what an indictment.....and if not what a shocking state of affairs for the 20th century... The dept of trade and industry followed the BOT i believe and what a cock up that would appear to be... how sad.....cappy ......

[j.sabourn]

Thomas was that not Roote and Brown you are referring to ? Is that old ex RN salvage vessel still just inside the locks in Lowestoft ? the " Chieftain" with the old horns on the bow. I put her back there in 1991 after doing a survey job for that well known Westminster dredging company. Had to go out from Dover to replace the Master who I believe was an ex Green Peace master, he had some excuse for getting off, but think him being Greenpeace and the fishermen kicking up about disturbing the sea bed he wanted clear of any contreversey . Did a couple of weeks before putting ship back in Lowestoft. The money payed for our airfares a week later out to Australia. The dredging company was looking for a particular sand to sell commercially. Cheers JS.....