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Thread: Info. Required. Thomas Emanuel Ramsden

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    Default Info. Required. Thomas Emanuel Ramsden

    Birth about 1810 Plymouth England.
    Backing for such on his masters cert. of Service.
    Various references of movements , marriages etc.
    ships on one prominent one the schooner Lioness?
    Declared bankrupt in 1850.
    1852 lioness master TE Ramsden picked up survivors from HMS Birkenhead off Danger Point S.A.
    Various ship movements Australia, South Africa, and UK
    Much more detail available if required.
    Questions Who is Thomas Ramsden senior , master Mariner ?
    Was he on the Perseverence if so her voyages ?
    What other ships did he sail on ?
    Married to ?
    Death ?
    Have sent Vernon a full account of what the searchers have achieved and hope he can transfer to this brief post if necessary.
    JS
    Last edited by j.sabourn; 28th September 2020 at 07:44 AM.
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    Default Re: Info. Required. Thomas Emanuel Ramsden

    Thomas Emanuel RamsdenBirth– Abt. 1810, Plymouth, England


    Heis known as the master of the schooner “Lioness”, which picked upsurvivors from the stricken ship HMS "Birkenhead", offDanger Point, South Africa on 25th Feb 1852. In this disaster, of theestimated 643 people on board 193 survived, with 116 being rescued bythe “Lioness”


    Backingfor his birth date and origin lies in his “Masters Certificate ofService”, issued 10th Mar 1851. This states “born in Plymouth,County of Devon in the year 1810”. The Masters Certificate, statesthat he had been “employed in the capacity of Apprentice Mate andMaster 33 years in the British Merchant Service in the ForeignTrades”. Given an 1810 birthdate, this implies that he had firstgone to sea, aged 8 years, in 1818. Is this consistent with him beingemployed perhaps as a cabin boy and possibly under his Master MarinerFather – also named Thomas Ramsden’s tutelage? Possiblereference to his father on the Country Ship Perseverance is:-

    Mar1815-Aug 1816
    Complaintpreferred by the Portuguese Governor of Mozambique against CaptainThomas Ramsden, Master of the Country ship Perseverance, for tradingin Delagoa bay without permission”
    https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...5-999087a748ba
    1828 First reference in Sth Africa is his marriagecertificate – marriage in 1842 in Cape Town to Louisa Carolina Cookstates he had lived there [Cape Town] for 14 years = 1828
    17 Jan1844 Daughter Christiana Ramsden born “aboard ship at CapeTown” – ship not known
    1848 Commencesa relationship with Mary Ann Ridair [at Cape Town?]
    24 Jul 1849 Wife commences divorce action due to Thomas having“carnal relations” with Mary Ann Harris
    1849 Schooner “Lioness” 132 tons built by RobertLongworth, at his Fullerton's Marsh Shipyard, on the HillsboroughRiver. “Lioness” first registered at Prince Edward Island on 22ndAug 1849. Registration then transferred to London
    1849 “Lioness” 158 tons [ new measure] sails to London?Master not known. Thomas E Ramsden becomes Master and sails “Lioness”from ?? England to Sth Africa
    1849 –1855 “Lioness” in Lloyds Register – Master T E Ramsden –each year to 1855
    27 Mar1850 Thomas Emanuel is adjudicated Bankrupt
    20June 1850 “Sailedout of Table Bay, Lioness, T Ramsden to Mossel Bay”
    The Cape of Good Hope Government Gazette, Cape Town, 27th June1850
    10 Mar 1851 Thomas Emanuel Ramsden granted Masters Certificateno 52.957, issued at Liverpool. States had been apprentice mate for33 years
    1852 “Lioness” - Master T E Ramsdenpicked up survivors from the HMS "Birkenhead" Danger Point,Sth Africa
    12 Dec1852 “Lioness” - Master T E Ramsden sails from Mauritius toMelbourne

    20 Jan 1853 “Lioness” - Master T E Ramsden arrives inMelbourne
    1853 – 1854 “Lioness”- Master T E Ramsden commencestrading between Adelaide/Melbourne/Tasmania – numerous sailingalready documented
    21 Mar 1854 “Lioness” - Master T E Ramsden wrecked onClarke Island, Bass Strait, Australia. Newspaper report states that“Lioness”…. port of registry being Cape Town… owned by hercommander Captain Ramsden, to whom a large portion of her cargobelonged. The Lioness was, we understand, insured in a MelbourneCompany for £1,000"
    21 Nov 1854 Brig “Anne” 350 tons, A 1 at Lloyds commandedby Thomas E Ramsden prepares to sale to Port Natal, Algoa Bay, CapeTown
    Nov 1854 – Mar 1855 Brig “Anne” calls at Mauritius toundergo repairs £400 to £500.; Funds provided by Mary Ann Ridair
    10 Mar 1855 “The "Annie", brig, Captain Ramsden[formerly of the "Lioness"] put into port on Saturday,bound for London”
    May 1855 Brig “Anne” arrives London, England. Some furtherrepairs became necessary and Mary Ann Ridair advanced a further sum,which made the total amount she advanced upon the ship £700. Shesecured the advance to Thomas Ramsden with a Bottomry Bond.
    1856 “The Anne” was finally sold in the early part of 1856for £1,170
    QUESTIONS

    • Who is Thomas Ramsden Snr, Master Mariner?





    • Presumed born or at least living in Plymouth, England
    • Did he trade in South Africa?
    • Was he on the “Perseverance” if so what were her voyages?
    • what other ships did he sail on?
    • Married to?
    • Death?





    • Son, Thomas Emanuel Ramsden Jnr, also a Master Mariner





    • Presumed born or at least living in Plymouth, England
    • Did he go to South Africa at an early age with his father?
    • What ships was he on prior to the “Lioness”?
    • How did he get back to London to pick up the “Lioness”?
      Date of arrival of “Lioness” in South Africa
    • Can we track “Lioness” shipping movements in Sth Africa?
    • Was he also on the “Perseverance” if so, what were her voyages?
    • Can we track where the birth of daughter Christiana Ramsden was registered
    • Details of the 350 ton brig “Anne/Annie” – owners etc
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    Default Re: Info. Required. Thomas Emanuel Ramsden

    Will look at this in detail later and see if anything else can be found, its a big ask and hopefully with anyone who has any knowledge in this track and trace game can assist i am sure the Person who is seeking such will be most grateful.
    Thanks for reading and any help put forward
    However must say that with all that is already given , it will be darn hard to come up with much more!
    But will try
    Cheers
    Last edited by Doc Vernon; 28th September 2020 at 09:30 AM.
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    Default Re: Info. Required. Thomas Emanuel Ramsden


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    Default Re: Info. Required. Thomas Emanuel Ramsden

    Will look more later adding the below for now.

    THOMAS MANUAL RAMSDEN AND CHRISTIANA RAMSDEN

    THE WRECK OF THE "BIRKENHEAD"


    Christiana Ramsden born 17 Jan 1844 on board a ship at Cape of Good Hope, Africa, daughter of Thomas RAMSDEN, Master Mariner. He was the Master and owner of the small coastal schooner, 'Lioness" making her way from Algoa Bay to Cape of Good Hope, when he picked up soldiers/surviviors from the the sinking of the "Birkenhead", off Danger Point, South Africa on 25th Feb 1852

    A book "The Unfortunate ship" by S J Lennox Kerr is about the controversial iron ship "Birkenhead" and its stranding on a rock.

    Page 146 "The women an children were helped aboard the "Lioness"and taken to the saloon where Mrs Ramsden, the wife of the schooner's owner and captain, emptied her wardrobe to clad the scantily clad survivors, cutting up even her best silk gowns and leaving herself only with the clothes she was wearing"
    Page 177 "Commodore Wyvill did not help the Navy's reputation by his treatment of Captain Ramsden of the schooner "Lioness" When Ramsden asked that damage done to his vessel while cutters were alongside and were being lifted on board be made good and described to Wyvill what his Wife, his men and he had done and what they had given to the survivors, the Navy Officer retorted "Well, sir, has all this been done in expectation of remuneration? "Ramsden replied that he hoped not, but his men were poor and had given all they possessed. No payment or replacements of clothing were given to these men and. to replace the food which Ramsden had used in feeding 116 people for two days, he was granted part of a cask of salt beef and the same quantity of salt pork and three bags of ships biscuits.

    Another book "A Deathless Story" also contains mention of the Ramsden Family.

    Daughter Christiana (then 8 years old) was told to stay down below deck when sailors/soldiers were rescued and stripped of their wet clothing Christiana disobeyed and went up on deck, being punished by receiving a spanking with a silver hairbrush. A story which was told many times by Christiana to her children and grandchildren.

    https://gablerose.com/Shipwrecked.html

    Added:

    ... coasting schooner Lioness (Master Thomas Emmanuel Ramsden). She was en route from England to Melbourne with Ramsden, his wife, Mary Ann, his 8 year old daughter daughter Christiana.

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...amsden&f=false

    Wife: Mary Ann - Mary Ann Ridair / Mary Ann Harris ?

    K.
    Last edited by Keith at Tregenna; 28th September 2020 at 01:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Info. Required. Thomas Emanuel Ramsden

    Certain to find more, some oddities to sort already,
    hoping Doc can explain a little about:

    RE: 1828 First reference in Sth Africa is his marriage certificate – marriage in 1842 in Cape Town to Louisa Carolina Cook states he had lived there [Cape Town] for 14 years = 1828

    Matched to info: Marriage - 1842 Louisa Carolina (Van de Kaap) aka Kok Louisa Carolina Koek was born about 1804.

    K.

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    Default Re: Info. Required. Thomas Emanuel Ramsden

    Just wondering if this was that Ship Lioness mentioned although had a different Captain.
    Cheers

    https://westcoast.recollect.co.nz/nodes/view/6161


    Added
    The Western Cape Archives are closed at this time due to Covid and no staff to Monitor the Web.
    So will have to see when it re opens what there is to find!
    Last edited by Doc Vernon; 28th September 2020 at 09:40 PM.
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    Default Re: Info. Required. Thomas Emanuel Ramsden

    I have her as the The schooner Lioness.

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    Default Re: Info. Required. Thomas Emanuel Ramsden

    Saturday, March 12—The schooner Lioness, 132 tons, Ramsden, master, from Melbourne 4th March. Passengers—Messrs Lloyd and Struthers, Miss Carson, Mrs Rodgers and 2 children, in the cabin; Messrs Charleston, Homeworth, Perkins
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    Default Re: Info. Required. Thomas Emanuel Ramsden

    You are tremendous Doc - what you trace is exceptional. Wonder what you do in your spare time.
    Ken T
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