Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 73

Thread: Then and Now

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    W.A.
    Posts
    23,791
    Thanks (Given)
    12923
    Thanks (Received)
    13777
    Likes (Given)
    19191
    Likes (Received)
    77165

    Default Then and Now

    As regards reduced manning one can see how the Shipowners mind works and also the arguments put to the manning Authorities as to the legality of such.
    Then... All paperwork such as overtime, logbook entries, Timesheets for cargo times etc. Stability and draft problems, and many more had to sit down with a pencil paper and log tables and work out a long consuming job at times this was on top of watch keeping and deck duties.
    Now.... No overtime, logbook entries probably on a computer, cargo work mainly containers with load/ discharge by shore cranes. Timesheets etc. probably by shore tally clerks. Stability and trim problems more than likely on an electric modern loadicator. There are other as said numerous other jobs of days gone by on a ship which nowadays are not done or are now not in existence. For Example no wire splicing, would probably be hard to find a seaman now capable of doing, is more likely to be taught how to look in a radar screen. However among all the whys and wherefores of the reduced manning advocates, the most important one of proper seamanship is missing. The most glaring example of this is the lack of common sense when a reduction of Bridge manning has been advocated. we have had posts about Fog, bad weather, cargo shifting, others in peril on the high seas, all these situations depend on one Safety factor, and that is manpower, which our erstwhile masters overlook, and hope will never happen, this has been disproved time and time again, and the sooner they have a deep think about the manning of vessels, especially vessels in certain trades and jobs, and get away with the obsolete idea of classing all vessels the same, the better. As regards the recent apprehension of greenpeace members by the Russian Authorities I applaud as the proper thing to do, it is a great pity that our own gutless authorities have not done this in the past and the proper charges laid against them, the recent leader of the Green party was seen on tv applauding the acts of Mr. Watson on his promise to collide with other vessels with a battering ram attached to the ships side, both of these unsavoury characters to my mind should have been arrested on the spot. These are my views only, others will differ from this, however all I see as regards the shipping world of the past 30 years or so is in most cases bad legislation based only on financial incomings. I am still and will always be as regards shipping, a strong advocate of manpower, as is one of the most important aspects of Safety. Cheers John Sabourn

  2. Likes Denis O'Shea, Colin Wood liked this post
  3. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Shields
    Posts
    5,219
    Thanks (Given)
    480
    Thanks (Received)
    6100
    Likes (Given)
    4117
    Likes (Received)
    14824

    Default Re: Then and Now

    John S
    In the main I agree totally with your comments regarding manpower but a couple of comments
    Proper written log books still have to be kept on board
    wire splicing, rope splicing, rigging stages etc. are still taught in Nautical Colleges to all new entrants, but Health and Safety (and shore side unions) have deemed that splicing can only be done in an emergency so, for example, wire splices are not acceptable if done by crew members, on any cargo gear yet splicing of mooring lines is o.k..
    Regarding manning, the scales are worked out on what is considered safe for when the ship is at sea and takes little or no account of situations when the workload increases, i.e tank/hold cleaning, fog, in port cargo work etc. The manning scales reckon that if there are sufficient on board to sail and navigate safely when in open waters then there should be sufficient to cover all other situations either by doubling watches or using crew members from other departments to assist and when every one on board is knackered then the work/rest hours regs. come into play and the ship just stops all activities until crew members have had their required rest and yes it does happen as both myself and some of my former colleagues have refused to sail/berth or continue tank cleaning until the crew have had there rest periods, a tired overworked crew member is a danger to all on board and the ship. The vast majority of ship owners I would say, either actively ensure that their Masters ensure these regs. are followed or are at least putting in place systems to ensure they are, after all PSC detentions over excessive work/rest breaches cost the shipowner far more than a few extra hours on a passage between ports.
    ISM, ISPS, Work/Rest Hours etc mean that todays Masters and Officers are inundated with paperwork to such an extent that both flag states and the IMO are slowly coming round to the idea of introducing regulations to reduce the amount of paperwork on board.
    Without the modern computer I have serious doubts that todays ships could actually function correctly and within the law.
    Take my last command as an example.
    Typical voyage. Load mixed chemicals in MSC, voyage to Antwerp, discharge Antwerp, tank clean, sail to Rotterdam and back load mixed chemicals.
    Workload for total crew of 13
    At sea, safety training and routine maintenance which will require risk assessments and daily record of work/rest hours in addition to normal watchkeeping duties
    24 hrs before arrival at each port following paperwork to be sent
    ISPS declaration
    Garbage record
    on arrival
    crew lists
    bond declaration
    Another ISPS form
    In port in addition to cargo operations
    storing, annual servicing perhaps of liferafts/lifeboat launching gear/fire appliances, PSC and OCIMF vetting plus supers visits.
    So without the aid of computers, loading calculators and modern Nav. Aids it would have been virtually impossible for my ship to comply with all the regulations in force to day irrespective of crew numbers.
    The MLC and other new regulations coming into force are attempting to address the manning required on board but as you correctly stated, ship owners will always try to go for the lowest numbers claiming that crew wages make up the greatest part of any ships budget. I do not hold with that as a few extra crew members not only make for a safer ship but more routine maintenance can be done thus reducing the cost of having to bring in outside labour to fix things when they do go wrong.
    Just a quick snap shot of todays life at sea
    rgds
    JA

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Bolton UK
    Posts
    15,004
    Thanks (Given)
    20832
    Thanks (Received)
    11092
    Likes (Given)
    30414
    Likes (Received)
    37124

    Default Re: Then and Now

    Thanks for that John,
    I am So glad I retired 16 years ago.
    Cheers
    Brian

  5. Likes Denis O'Shea liked this post
  6. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    5,730
    Thanks (Given)
    485
    Thanks (Received)
    3551
    Likes (Given)
    2431
    Likes (Received)
    15298

    Default Re: Then and Now

    its just a job now?jp

  7. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    plymouth devon ex enfield
    Posts
    1,895
    Thanks (Given)
    337
    Thanks (Received)
    71
    Likes (Given)
    1722
    Likes (Received)
    358

    Default Re: Then and Now

    made me tired just reading it. With regards the splicing and other knowledge. I would think that that would stay with you for life. I can still do west country whipping which I learned from my dad when I was nine also how to secure a line to the top of a cliff or building, lower yourself down, then a quick tug would bring the rope down to you.
    Backsheesh runs the World
    people talking about you is none of your business
    R397928

  8. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    5,730
    Thanks (Given)
    485
    Thanks (Received)
    3551
    Likes (Given)
    2431
    Likes (Received)
    15298

    Default Re: Then and Now

    alf you could get the start with greenpeace?

  9. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    W.A.
    Posts
    23,791
    Thanks (Given)
    12923
    Thanks (Received)
    13777
    Likes (Given)
    19191
    Likes (Received)
    77165

    Default Re: Then and Now

    John why the hell teach anyone to tie a stage knot in the present manning of vessels. Unless the working day is now 24 hours how the heck is anyone going to get time to go over on a stage. There will be too much time spent on Safety Meetings which prove zilch only that a crew member attended and you have his signature to prove it . He will probably be asleep anyway. As regards demanding rest periods I have yet to see a crew do this and retain their jobs. All sounds very nice for the records. In practice I have severe doubts. I have attended some of these so called Safety meetings, and most of the time is spent arguing what is time lost and what circumstances is an accident considered an accident, and trying to get as least time lost on paper so as to receive the safety Award for that month. Another time wasting period where people could be in their bunks trying to catch up with lost sleep. Maybe then there wouldn't be so many accidents. I have very little faith in these people who draw up all this so called good legislation, it is like telling your grannie how to suck eggs and mostly written up by people with very little if any experience in a seagoing position, or at the best only in a certain type of trade. Like Brian I am glad I am retired and can only wish those still serving at sea the best, and hope they stand up for what is right and proper for the ship that they are serving on .Regards John Sabourn

  10. Likes Denis O'Shea liked this post
  11. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    4,607
    Thanks (Given)
    2087
    Thanks (Received)
    3355
    Likes (Given)
    10815
    Likes (Received)
    12754

    Default Re: Then and Now

    John . Then And Now, I have no doubt that the maintenance undertook by most of us on this site. Such as preparing a painting stage, rigging a chair aloft, knowing what you could do with a bowser line, a hook chair, lizards, gantlines, heaving lines, splicing not just wire rope but many rope splices we undertook, bends and hitches, slip knots for dumping dunnage over the side using the ships gear, knowing and understanding the importance of many aspects of life at sea as an A.B. And passing on your knowledge to the younger lads coming up through the ranks. There are still ships afloat were many of todays seaman would not have a clue to work. The one and only time I ever witnessed deck cargo going over the side was on a container boat we lost a few in the Irish sea in terrible weather. Yet I think back to my time with the likes of Palm Line down the west coast of Africa raw materials {logs} lashed on her decks them lashings were checked over and over everyday by all the deck crew never lost one. I have said before and stand by it British crews were the best in the world we had the biggest fleet of Merchant ships we faced tasks that were hairy and scary but hey mate most of us are here to tell the tale. I brings to mind the terrible tragedy of the Costa Concordia, Most of the seaman on deck were Peruvian fishermen. Be honest if you would have been aboard her as a seaman and she started to list in the fashion she did I wouldn,t have awaited an abandon ship order I would have started getting people into liferafts and getting them away from the ships side Regards John Terry.
    Last edited by Red Lead Ted; 29th September 2013 at 06:54 PM.
    {terry scouse}

  12. Likes Denis O'Shea, Colin Wood liked this post
  13. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Shields
    Posts
    5,219
    Thanks (Given)
    480
    Thanks (Received)
    6100
    Likes (Given)
    4117
    Likes (Received)
    14824

    Default Re: Then and Now

    John S
    Cynical you are, truthful you are though.
    Since around 2002 there has been some pretty radical changes and safety cultures are getting better. Agree that at times in earlier days safety meetings were a farce just for tick box exercises but as Bob Dylan said the times they are a changing".
    Falsifying work/rest records is almost a certain exercise in detention. PSC inspectors (Aus being particularly tough) can easily spot false records and it leads to almost certain detention. I know of a number of occasions where masters have stopped their ships due to overworked crews and have not suffered any consequences.
    rgds
    JA

  14. Likes Tony Taylor liked this post
  15. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    5,730
    Thanks (Given)
    485
    Thanks (Received)
    3551
    Likes (Given)
    2431
    Likes (Received)
    15298

    Default Re: Then and Now

    Quote Originally Posted by red lead ted View Post
    John . Then And Now, I have no doubt that the maintenance undertook by most of us on this site. Such as preparing a painting stage, rigging a chair aloft, knowing what you could do with a bowser line, a hook chair, lizards, gantlines, heaving lines, splicing not just wire rope but many rope splices we undertook, bends and hitches, slip knots for dumping dunnage over the side using the ships gear, knowing and understanding the importance of many aspects of life at sea as an A.B. And passing on your knowledge to the younger lads coming up through the ranks. There are still ships afloat were many of todays seaman would not have a clue to work. The one and only time I ever witnessed deck cargo going over the side was on a container boat we lost a few in the Irish sea in terrible weather. Yet I think back to my time with the likes of Palm Line down the west coast of Africa raw materials {logs} lashed on her decks them lashings were checked over and over everyday by all the deck crew never lost one. I have said before and stand by it British crews were the best in the world we had the biggest fleet of Merchant ships we faced tasks that were hairy and scary but hey mate most of us are here to tell the tale. I brings to mind the terrible tragedy of the Costa Concordia, Most of the seaman on deck were Peruvian fishermen. Be honest if you would have been aboard her as a seaman and she started to list in the fashion she did I wouldn,t have awaited an abandon ship order I would have started getting people into liferafts and getting them away from the ships side Regards John Terry.
    only thing is terry what should and will happen in a court of law its only an opinion we as seamen know its the right thing to do but it would be against there law that is one of the sad things that the laws of h+s the way they look at it if an accident was to happen its you that would be breaking there rules stupid to us but not to the pencil neck that think these things up just my view?jp

Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •