The Pool

[Red Lead Ted]

I have looked all over google for the Harmattan incident, Very little information at all, just that she was hit by a missile and sunk,
Not a word about casualties,
I guess no one cares about dead and injured Seamen .
Brian.

That's my point Brian, Hugh is a gem he done the research for the forum, It was only by emailing the ships R.O. Robin Marsh that I got that and a lot more info on the Harmattan in fact I have a 64 page dossier on the incident as Hugh says Captain Houston had the boats swung out as did we all at anchor although the Harmattan wasn't destined for India or Pakistan she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and 4 Engineers playing cards in one of there cabins didn't have a chance when this missile hit her the Indian government offered there sincere apologies to the U.K. Government for this terrible tragic accident but from what I have in my possession it could have been any ship from any nation in or around the area. I spoke to Robin telephone quite a few times he put me in touch with a lot of the families and crew involved. The sight of her getting towed alongside us on boxing day 1971 her forepart and derricks and all the midships accommodation will haunt me all my life. Yet nobody back in the U.K. Could give me any info on the incident in fact I think I embarrassed the N.U.S. Into promising to look into this very seriously. Not a jot from that day to this. Thanks again Hugh. Terry.

[j.sabourn]

Terry, an awful lot of merchant seamen have seen death in different formats, sometimes at an early age. I was unfortuanate enough to see a shipboard death on first trip to sea, and had to sit with the body for hours at a time at different periods. The next trip the master went (fell) down an empty hold and almost fell on top of me, although he wasn't killed outright he was crippled for life as got medical attention within a few days in Guam. A japanese stevedore also went (fell) down an empty hold another trip and I had to go and pronounce him dead. There are other incidents I can think about, plus all the death one saw in the likes of India, which was a living death for some. One gets hardened to the sight of death at sea, especially when there was no one to turn to. Standing unwritten orders I might say from the shipowner was, don't take a corpse into port as this would cause delays. I have had good friends drowned at sea, their compensation was deplorable. The likes of the British sailors society and others being the only way of surviving for some families. The general public are not interested in loss of life by seamen, however if a passenger falls over the wall from some big liner as it did the other day out here, it is news headlines for days sometimes weeks. Cheers all the best JS

[Red Lead Ted]

Agree fully John, I remember being alongside in Port o Spain in Trinidad, One of the stewards went ashore one night never to be seen again we all thought the bridge included he had skinned out, Until we let go to sail and he submerged between the ship and the quay obviously fell of the quay or gangway. Also remember sitting with a dying Kroo boy in Port Harcourt, Aboard a palm boat MAcGregor Hatch slipped its coaming between the hatch and mast house he dived underneath to fit a shackle and chain against my advice. I myself was a very lucky young man I still have nightmares about it. Aboard the M.V.HARP Container boat Crescent shipping, We unloaded the boxes ourselves in Jeddah with a gantry crane that run fore and aft along the ships side port and starboard. The spreader which picked up the boxes failed as in twist locks, We had to attatch 4 chain hooks on the box and sit on the container as the spreader heaved it on and off the ship. In a moment of call it what you want I sat on the spreader instead of the container and signalled the Bosun to heave..............I screamed to come back on the lever to the Bosun as I heard a few of my ribs crack bent over lucky for me he had his whits about him and heard me scream. I also witnessed some terrible injuries at sea where hatches were concerned getting cargo on pallets in the tween decks was a nightmare of a job as you well know. You had to have eyes in the back of your head aboard every ship and it was a case of look after number one. I think these experiences are nothing to compare what seaman went through in convoys and bombings at sea. But I agree you had to go from boy to man very quickly at sea. I always remember the last day after 3 months in Gravesend sea school. The tutor was stood with a hand full of discharge books as we left handing them out, {HIS LASTING WORDS} As I hand these out I want to give you all a statistic to think about at least, 2% of these books will never get filled, Not because you don't want to but its fact that through lack of concentration or drunkenness some of you may well loose your life at sea remember everything you have learnt here and will at sea, Bon voyage to you all. Regards John Terry.

[j.sabourn]

Can think right away of 3 people I personally knew who lost their lives coming back to ship and going off the gangway. One in particular was my cousin on a Salvesson ship in the Thames, for many years he was an Engineer with Palm line so was not an inexperienced youngster, he was also a very strong swimmer, so must have hit his head. Gangway safety nets were supposed to be enforcible by law, carrying suitcases and such no easy task,half the time they were a very poor substitute for safety, and only applied if the conditions were right. Manys the time I have had to climb over 3 or 4 ships to get to the outer one when joining in the likes of Singapore or other ports, Safety only applies in certain conditions, as all know especially if it costs money to enforce. Used to make me laugh when had to go to Safety Meetings and people that solemn and thinking they are telling you something when talking about safety hats and boots . Can you ever remember years ago a shipowner supplying such. Even oilskins and seaboots were all up to supply yourself. It was only when it was cheaper to supply on ship rather than pay the extra on air freight when seamen being flown out to join ships, that things started to change. There are a host of things which these so called experts on safety which has suddenly become a very lucrative career to some, are already known by most seafarers, and is like teaching your granny how to suck eggs. The sea itself is and has always been a dangerous environment this is further agitated by certain workings on a working ship. Remember being anchored in the Mersey and the pilot cutter brought my wife and 2 kids out to ship, it was a blustery night and the youngest one had reins on and I leaned down unthinking grabbed the reins and hoiked him on board. I had nightmares after thinking about the consequences of the reins parting. I didn't like women and children on a ship and was always on tenterhooks when they were there. Right up until I retired I thought the normal ship was not a place for women and kids. Cheers JS

[Charlie Hannah]

You did have the option but when your broke not many options open to you!

[Charlie Hannah]

In Australia you went to the union pick up center for your jobs,On occasion a few were picked up in the pub by the union rep.When the aggregate wage came out think from memory it was 72 that was around the same time our Pension scheme came out,best thing that ever happened on the coast.You also had to be a fully paid up member of the union when you signed on the the delegate checked your union
card if you weren't paid up fully you were told pay it up or the ship will not sail the members would refuse to sail with you on board.I only ever came across one guy who was not a fully paid up member this guy got away with it for three years how he did it has me puzzled as the delloe's were usually filthy on any one caught out.

[Red Lead Ted]

Charlie, As you well no the OZ unions were always stringent, Nothing wrong with that mate everyones safety at heart. All the ships gear had to be above board or better, If they found a S.W.L. Or as much as a heel block wasnt what it should be the ship wasnt worked. If more ports around the world were like them there would have been less fatalities. Think about it how many times did you pay off in the U.K. With the ships gear being the same you had sailed with 3 or 4 weeks earlier. No checks no delegates to inspect and no headaches for them up top. That is what it was all about. I have nothing but admiration for the OZ Steverdores and there unions. Terry.

[j.sabourn]

Charlie you obviously have more experience than me on the coast here re unions etc. When I used to come out here on British ships I suppose I was brainwashed to the extent that the dockside and maritime unions were made a joke of, and are still to this day by people outside Australian shipping. There were a couple of ABs I sailed with out here who had the option of taken early retirement, if your pension fund was started in 72, and they retired in 98, that was 26 years in. They walked away with over 600,000 dollars each is what they told me. Pity the NUS hadn't had the foresight to have done the same. As I have always said I am not particular pro union as know any organization will have its share of bad hats, but would rather see it there than not. The press when you read of strikes in the likes of Port Hedland and such, you never get the full story, is a story to suit themselves as they also are anti union. My 11 plus years out here there were quite a few concessions given away to achieve a higher wage, this was usually done with the consent of the membership. Those that cry the country cant afford it should remember they have been affording it and making good profits for the past 40 years or so, they just want bigger profits that's all. This they can only get my employing cheap labour which is self defeating to the country as a whole. Cheers JS

[happy daze john in oz]

It has been written here innOz that ther unions were the rerason for the final demise if the shipping industry here. The wharf workers certainly did them selves no favours over the years with their work practices, and it was not until the mid 90's that their power was broken.

We currently have a tanker sitting in the bay, has been taken over by the crew of 18 who say they will stay there as long as they have to. The owners say there is no need for the ship any more, it was used to transport oil from Melbourne to Adelaide, as they have a more modern fleet now. The crew have been told the ship is bound for Singapore where they will be retrenched and the ship sent for scrap. So far they have been holding out for two weeks, how much longer is anyones guess.

[j.sabourn]

On the face of it, it sounds simple and rather stupid to sit on an obsolete ship. However it does show the powers that be that there is still a number of people not ready to accept anything thrown at them and who knows there may be a deeper reason for doing so. You will never get the complete and full story from the press with both sides claims made public. There were when I started work out here many luxury items thrown in with work agreements, however the real apparently outrageous ones to some have now been lost, this through a lack of willingness on some to hold on to. As regards the loss of shipping in the uk as well as here was not due to high wages especially the uk, I did a seminar breaking down costings National merchant fleets broken down to running costs. The cheapest was the Greeks, next came the British which was about 10 bob dearer than the Greeks. The others Denmark, Germany. Norway, France, you name it were all much higher costs to the British. Its a fallacy put forward by lying governments to cover their own tracks on their intentions and which they have succeeded in destroying the British Merchant Service. This information and data was gone through by accountants and various people in the world of money, these findings were never made public. Any silly twot in government waving a piece of paper at the public can make them believe what he says as true, always reminds me of Chamberlain the spineless one. JS